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Old 05-08-2017, 03:32 AM   #21
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Remove armor by force

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
I am wondering if it might be possible to just partially remove flexible armor (like shift it to expose some skin to bypass the DR) without needing to pin the opponent.

For example, when Gaston pulls up the pantleg to expose the left calf of Stanley, Stanley is lying prone but doesn't really seem to be pinned, just subject to a leg grapple....
Given that is a loose trouser/hose leg as opposed to armour that was secured in place possibly with some kind of arming garment under it, I'd say we're not talking about similar things.

Nice example of double attack two handed grapple to leg and bite, with part of the grapple being to pull the material back (weather you want to adjust the grapple for that or just have it as special effect given Gaston is IIRC pretty rough and tough in a fight is up to you)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-08-2017 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:17 AM   #22
Joseph Paul
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Default Re: Remove armor by force

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Then you fail. "Sorry, you can't do it" is a realistic outcome (a sufficiently large physical advantage will also make it possible, a human can undress a struggling baby, but you have to totally outclass the victim).
Or we could mention that there are rules for various means to trap, immobilize and bind an opponent. In fact that fight may have to be intentionally staged in an area that supports such efforts. Tie-down points, heavy stuff ready to topple, rope or chain conveniently close by. And of course magic may be available.

As for getting armor off of the target it may be necessary to cut rivets that secure leather closures to the armor (that you can't cut without risking harming the wearer or that some one has been very clever in designing) or cut links of mail. If metal cutting nips or shears can't be had a hammer and chisel might prove handy and if there is a need to open up a hauberk or haubergeon I would suggest a board wide and long enough to spread a blow out that has an iron plate mounted to it. Slip it under the mail and chisel the links open. The wearer won't like it but shouldn't suffer much if any damage.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:42 AM   #23
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Remove armor by force

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
I am wondering if it might be possible to just partially remove flexible armor (like shift it to expose some skin to bypass the DR) without needing to pin the opponent.
Shifting clothing aside during a grapple should be possible, but note that most flexible armor - and a good deal of clothing, particularly at lower TL's - is going to be secured with various straps and belts and the like, both for keeping (say) the pants from falling off and to prevent it from shifting around too much, which with the high weights of flexible armors can be tiring. Shifting unsecured clothing/armor out of the way (how far it can be shifted is up to the GM, as it will vary depending on design and location) is probably doable simply as an Attack during a grapple, with the foe being able to defend as normal. For secured clothing, you need to either destroy the restraints (probably the same rules as for cutting the straps of rigid armor) or remove them first. Removing them I'd eyeball as nominally taking 1/4th of the armor's Don time, but if the foe isn't pinned (or, in TG, reduced to 0 DX) this is instead a sequence of Attacks, with the foe being able to defend normally. Each successful hit counts as 1 second of the time needed to remove the armor. A foe who manages to break free with his straps partially undone may reconnect them by taking Ready maneuvers - each Ready negates one of the foe's previous successes. A foe who's straps were completely removed requires twice as long to reattach them as they nominally took to remove. Flexible armor that isn't secured, unless light enough to count as clothing, imposes a -1 DX to the associated body parts due to the weight shifting too much during combat. For simplicity, the armor is treated as completely secured (cannot be shifted) until the straps have been completely removed, and completely unsecured (can be shifted) until the straps have been completely reattached if they were previously removed.

Note that Expertly Tailored and Masterfully Tailored flexible armor may be tightly-fit enough to not need straps, but also be extremely difficult to shift. For simplicity, assume it cannot be shifted, and must instead be removed or destroyed.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:14 PM   #24
Anders
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Default Re: Remove armor by force

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Then you fail. "Sorry, you can't do it" is a realistic outcome (a sufficiently large physical advantage will also make it possible, a human can undress a struggling baby, but you have to totally outclass the victim).
Few babies are dressed in mail armor. :o)
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:15 AM   #25
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Remove armor by force

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
That seems about right. Is the 1/4 based on a Don (or is that Undon?) time of 4 seconds?
No, it's based on the fact that removing armor takes 1/2 the Don time, and I'm assuming that half of this time is spent preparing the armor for removal (by undoing straps and the like).

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One thing I would add here is that the 1st attack is simply to grapple the buckle/strap, not to actually progress with undoing it in any way.
My suggestion assumes the character has already grappled the relevant hit location.

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The problem would be against guys who rapid-strike Grapple + Unbuckle (both at -6 to the DX roll or Undress Others skill) or who have Extra Attack, since they could make progress before the defender has an enchance to use an Escape maneuver, even though they would still get either a Dodge or Leg Parry roll to attempt to hinder each progression.
I'm fine with this, actually. Yes, it does mean that a highly skilled character can remove armor more quickly than the nominal removal time indicates. I'm fine with that.

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Would that reflect having to re-secure the armor to the limb and get the buckles close to one another since after the last is undone it comes completely apart?
Pretty much, yeah. It also reflects the fact that putting on armor takes twice as long as taking it off does.

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Is that -1 to DX per buckle undone? Or just from the 1st to the 2nd last?
It's -1 once all the buckles on that hit location have been undone (in fact, for simplicity, my proposed system ignores the fact there are multiple straps/buckles/etc, treating it as though there were simply one being worked on).

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Got confused as this point, are we splitting "loosen strap" and "remove strap" as different attacks?
Not exactly. Basically, if you simply reduce the amount of time remaining to undo it, you've loosened it. Once the time remaining reaches 0 seconds, it has been undone. So, against an armor with a Don time of 20 seconds, you need 5 seconds to remove the straps. Your first four successful attacks to do so simply loosen the straps - the fifth one undoes them.

Note here I'm using "undo" rather than "remove." The assumption is that the buckles/straps/etc are part of the armor, not accessories that you add on (in the latter case, you'd be able to remove it, and the character would have to take it back before he could put it on his armor).

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Assuming the default DX roll to attempt this is a 2-handed grapple, what kind of penalty should there be for doing it 1-handed? Assuming favored hand, obviously -4 if using the off hand.
"The Sound of One Hand Grappling" (MA116) suggests a -2, so I'd go with that.

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Also I'm thinking some passive skill penalties to this DX roll even if the enemy isn't actively defending, simply inflicted by any form of movement by them. A default DX roll (or Undress Others skill) should be assumed for someone who is immobile.
The foe moving is what requires you to even need to roll in the first place - otherwise, you just use Ready maneuvers.
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