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Old 12-06-2016, 11:14 AM   #31
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
That could work. "He may be a bully, but he's OUR bully!"
That only works if you have some reason to be allied with him.

Suppose you are a Jew in Russia in 1942. You have no reason to love Stalin. Perhaps you have relations that just escaped the Purge. Perhaps you yourself were just hauled out of the Gulag and plopped atop a Red Army command. But you are willing to play ball, not because you love Stalin but because you dislike the possibility of Hitler winning worse.
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:59 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
That is not actually a good reason not to be afraid of them or to be less afraid than you be of the famous philanthropist.
It's a good reason for the Intimidation check to fail, due to the penalty a negative reputation causes. Being scary is not always the same thing as scaring them into doing what you want - that fear can lead to other reactions, such as desperately attempting to kill you at all costs (because you have them convinced that any scenario in which you survive will lead to you coming after them).
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Old 12-06-2016, 05:13 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
It's a good reason for the Intimidation check to fail, due to the penalty a negative reputation causes. Being scary is not always the same thing as scaring them into doing what you want - that fear can lead to other reactions, such as desperately attempting to kill you at all costs (because you have them convinced that any scenario in which you survive will lead to you coming after them).
No. First of all, the person faced with the psycho-killer was already willing to stand still and listen long enough to for the Intimidation attempt to be tried. Bear in mind that they generally make a reaction roll (or react with a set reaction) _before_ you use social skills on them. If they decided to kill you on sight, then you probably don't have time to Intimidate them. What's more Intimidation isn't mind control. They can try to attack you no matter how badly you intimidated them. Just at a hefty minus to that first attack, one that shouldn't be reduced because you're so terrifying.
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Old 12-07-2016, 03:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. First of all, the person faced with the psycho-killer was already willing to stand still and listen long enough to for the Intimidation attempt to be tried. Bear in mind that they generally make a reaction roll (or react with a set reaction) _before_ you use social skills on them. If they decided to kill you on sight, then you probably don't have time to Intimidate them. What's more Intimidation isn't mind control. They can try to attack you no matter how badly you intimidated them. Just at a hefty minus to that first attack, one that shouldn't be reduced because you're so terrifying.
Just reading the section on reaction rolls (page 494, Basic Set/Campaigns), and it comes across as suggesting that reaction rolls do not take place immediately – it lists a series of bonuses and penalties that virtually require interaction take place before any rolls are made (such as the bonuses for skills or appropriate behaviour). It gives me the impression the reaction roll specifically doesn't take place before any social skills can be used.

I could see your suggestion about the attack roll making sense as one possible interpretation for the “Influencing the PCs” rules (Page 359 Basic Set, also 32 Social Engineering) – an interpretation I'd find very reasonable if suggested during play, but I'm not familiar with anything that sets out Intimidate inducing an attack penalty as an established rule. Obviously I'd treat that use of Intimidation to induce a penalty differently to using Intimidation to get a “Good” NPC reaction (in the case of applying penalties, then yes, I'd apply the negative rep as a bonus).

Honestly I'm basing my views on experiencing violence and intimidation, which is why I believe there is a “pushed too far” state when using Intimidation, when during the process of them threatening me I came to the conclusion “there's no way I'm going to be able to avoid a fight here” and changed my focus from trying to appease or avoid them to trying to stall until I could find something to fight them off with – and I specifically didn't start off the situation thinking that, and it wasn't a pre-set reaction. In GURPS terms, that could be the result of penalties from bad tactics (they tried too hard to corner me, they continued the aggression after I showed signs of backing down) but I could also see someone going too far when using the Intimidation skill as being the result of a bad roll, and someone who routinely makes that mistake as having a poor effective Intimidation skill (perhaps as a result of penalties from Bully or Sadism or a negative reputation which makes the process more delicate).
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:41 AM   #35
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
Here's a few ideas:
"You're the police chief who caught that killer!"
"You tortured all those people to catch that killer. I suppose your methods get results."
"You're a torturer. I don't need scum like you in my ranks."
"You're my kind of scum! One of my servants stole my wife's necklace, can you help find it?"
"Please, please! I am a loyal subject to the King! Don't take me away!"
All very good. Consider them stolen for my own future use.

But what I was really thinking about is how one constructs those outcomes in terms of buying a positive or negative Reputation. On that list, which are + and which are - ?
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:06 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
All very good. Consider them stolen for my own future use.

But what I was really thinking about is how one constructs those outcomes in terms of buying a positive or negative Reputation. On that list, which are + and which are - ?
Aren't they all just possible results of a Reaction Roll? Reputation doesn't produce those results, it just biases the roll toward one end of the table and away from the other.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

I like the Unwilling/Grudging modifier idea.

Here's another idea (which unfortunately I have no idea how to cost): give a bonus to Influence rolls using fear-based tactics, but also increase the threshold for critical failures (e.g., 16+ is an automatic critical failure). On a critical failure, the subject responds with a Disastrous reaction.

I have no idea how to cost it or how to determine the critical failure threshold, but it captures the volatility of the reputation.
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:04 PM   #38
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Aren't they all just possible results of a Reaction Roll? Reputation doesn't produce those results, it just biases the roll toward one end of the table and away from the other.
In the original conversation they are offered as outcome from Reputation but you are right.

Still the question remains which type of modifier biases which result.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:41 PM   #39
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
All very good. Consider them stolen for my own future use.

But what I was really thinking about is how one constructs those outcomes in terms of buying a positive or negative Reputation. On that list, which are + and which are - ?
"You tortured all those people to catch the killer, I suppose your methods get results" sounds like it would elicit the reaction of despised-but-useful.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
"You tortured all those people to catch the killer, I suppose your methods get results" sounds like it would elicit the reaction of despised-but-useful.
-2 despised, +1 useful?
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