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Old 12-05-2016, 03:06 PM   #21
Curmudgeon
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
Another way to put it: GURPS already provides for social traits that are mostly detrimental, but which are sometime a bit beneficial - they're the disadvantages you guys mention; disadvantages such as Horrific Appearance, etc.

But RogerBW is asking about the opposite case: social traits that are mostly beneficial, but sometimes a bit detrimental.

I think it's a real problem - and I quite like the proposed solution, too.
I donít quite think thatís it. GURPS does have social traits that are mostly detrimental but sometimes a bit beneficial but both effects come ďbaked intoĒ the price. While I canít think of a proper example offhand, the same ought to be true of effects that are mostly beneficial but sometimes a bit detrimental.

Grudging, and I might call it Unwilling or Coerced Cooperation, is a bit closer to the concept of an Unwilling Ally/Patron but it doesnít quite fit if the idea is an occasional detriment to a benefit.

A person giving Coerced Cooperation will probably slip away at the first reasonable opportunity. Whatís reasonable depends. You probably arenít going to leave your little room if there are a pair of thugs with SMGs on the stairwell leading down, even if the ďbossĒ isnít looking over your shoulder but if the stairwell is empty and itís just a short trip across the warehouse floor to the door out, that NPC is likely gone. If heís got a conscientious disadvantage, he may gather up his ďworking papersĒ and any prototype before leaving to mitigate any damage his Coerced Cooperation might bring about but Iím having a hard time seeing this as deserving points nor point reductions. This just seems to be the natural outcome of the situation, no special rules needed.

Iím having a bit of a failure of imagination about what a benefit with a sometimes detriment would look like. I keep thinking of something along the lines of ďI donít have to worry. I told Charlie to call the police at 1400 hrs, if he didnít hear from me.Ē, only Charlie didnít.

This needs some more thought.

Thinking about Grudging in connection with Reputations, whether positive or negative, brings me to the idea of Grudgingly Conceded as a Limitation. As currently envisioned itís worth nothing as a modifier. It is intended to represent certain characters such as Spider-Man or Robin Hood. Most people in Robin Hood are aware that heís an outlaw/highway robber (negative reputation) but donít particularly care. Likewise, most heroes and villains take Spider-Man as a hero despite the negative reputation Jolly J. Jonah Jameson has hung on him. A Reputation (Grudgingly Conceded) takes the following form:

[-5] Scarecrow (Grudgingly Conceded): -4 Murderer/Smuggler, [Almost everyone except one large class (Spaniards), All the time], large class of people (Kingís soldiers, pressgangs, excisemen, and Bow Street Runners), Sometimes 10-

The difference in a Grudgingly Conceded Reputation is that you are more widely known for your reputation than your points would suggest but the points are received only for the group that cares about it enough to make it an issue.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:12 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Consider what is supposed to happen when a person like the town bully or crooked police chief encounter someone way beyond their power.

Say the police chief comes before the Duke. Which way will positive or negative reps work on him?
Frequently such a person's Reputation won't even apply to a person beyond their power because the Duke or whoever isn't a member of the affected group. Usually an abusive police chief would have a negative with "Lower class of Snootyville" or "People of Miseryville". He may have a separate positive reputation with "Upperclass of Snootyville". If the Duke actually lives in Miseryville and is included then his reaction to the cop depends on whether he's personally a Bully. If he isn't then he will probably react at a minus because he's been getting all these complaints and doesn't like it.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 12-05-2016 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
I donít quite think thatís it. GURPS does have social traits that are mostly detrimental but sometimes a bit beneficial but both effects come ďbaked intoĒ the price. While I canít think of a proper example offhand, the same ought to be true of effects that are mostly beneficial but sometimes a bit detrimental.

.
Easy. Social Status. Mostly beneficial, but not so much with revolutionaries.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
It is intended to represent certain characters such as Spider-Man or Robin Hood. Most people in Robin Hood are aware that heís an outlaw/highway robber (negative reputation) but donít particularly care. Likewise, most heroes and villains take Spider-Man as a hero despite the negative reputation Jolly J. Jonah Jameson has hung on him.
The peasants in Robin Hood aren't affected by Robin's Bad Reputation (Steals From The Rich; Small Group: Nottingham Nobility) because they aren't in the group that it affects. Likewise Robin's Good Reputation (Gives to the Poor; Small Group: Nottingham Peasants) isn't felt by the Sheriff, or the Lords of Nottingham.

As for Spidey, that's because he doesn't have a negative rep, he has an Enemy (J. Jonah Jameson) who uses his media network to smear Spidey's good name, instead of downing a mask and tights and trying to fight the webslinger mano e mano.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Why wouldn't you be more intimidated by someone whose bad reputation consists of being well known for hurting people? Conversely why would you be MORE intimidated by a gun in the hands of a person famous for being a philanthropic do-gooder than you would in the hands of a famous psycho-killer?
Because the bad person well known for hurting people or the famous psycho-killer is probably going to hurt me anyway regardless of whether I do what he wants or not. I might not attack him, since he has a gun (which is true even on a Bad reaction - they seem too formidable to attack)... but I'll be thinking in terms of "my best chance of survival is to catch him unawares" instead of "I'll live if I just do what he wants."

Now I might consider "potential enemies/victims" as a large group of people for the purposes of a positive Reputation: too dangerous to cross.
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Old 12-05-2016, 04:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
The peasants in Robin Hood aren't affected by Robin's Bad Reputation (Steals From The Rich; Small Group: Nottingham Nobility) because they aren't in the group that it affects. Likewise Robin's Good Reputation (Gives to the Poor; Small Group: Nottingham Peasants) isn't felt by the Sheriff, or the Lords of Nottingham.

As for Spidey, that's because he doesn't have a negative rep, he has an Enemy (J. Jonah Jameson) who uses his media network to smear Spidey's good name, instead of downing a mask and tights and trying to fight the webslinger mano e mano.
Oh Spidey had a rep. It's just with the group "Faithful Bugle Readers", which includes few heroes even in New York and a good one with "Superheroes of New York" because he's the team-up king of all time. He's largely outlived the first one however.
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:22 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Oh Spidey had a rep. It's just with the group "Faithful Bugle Readers"...
That is certainly one way to build it and would have better served my point that a Reputation is very often not an "all or nothing" thing.
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by RogerBW View Post
Looking at it as two separate reputations, as it might be a +1 and a -2, I got the cost by assuming that the positive one would be available ~75% of the time.

The Unwilling Patron vanishes, it's suggested, on a natural 18. Perhaps the Grudging Reputation flips when someone rolls a natural 3 on their reaction to the holder?
That could work. "He may be a bully, but he's OUR bully!"
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:08 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

How about:

OPH: Tyrant
Reputation(feared).
Rank or Social Status or other advantage(whatever position allows him to be feared).
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:13 AM   #30
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Reputations for bad people

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Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
Because the bad person well known for hurting people or the famous psycho-killer is probably going to hurt me anyway regardless of whether I do what he wants or not.
That is not actually a good reason not to be afraid of them or to be less afraid than you be of the famous philanthropist.
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