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Old 10-14-2016, 12:41 PM   #61
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
The Pyramid article pretty much matches that range for cheap iron, but is more generous with what it calls "good" iron.
55 (or Doug's 51) is for 'good' iron. Cheap iron could be arbitrarily worse.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
It also had the best "hard" steel at TL4 beat out RHA, but its very expensive and gets way cheaper at later TLs.
Hard steel isn't very good armor in general; it's too brittle. If they meant face-hardened steel, maybe.
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Old 10-14-2016, 01:21 PM   #62
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
55 (or Doug's 51) is for 'good' iron. Cheap iron could be arbitrarily worse.

Hard steel isn't very good armor in general; it's too brittle. If they meant face-hardened steel, maybe.
Yes I think the assumption in the article is iron and steel that's intended for armour, I'm absolutely sure that was plenty of iron about that wasn't used for armour that was lower than 52.

So similarly those descriptors ("Good", "Cheap", "Hard", "Strong", etc) are given with that assumption in place, and in any case are really only generic and relative terms for the article.

So yeah I agree it's likely hardened steel that's suitable for use as armour, and not the hardest steel it's possible to make ignoring other relevant properties

TBH I've always assumed that DR per inch as a game stat for describing the effectiveness of armour isn't just a measure of hardness but of overall ability to resist penetration. So a really hard but brittle steel wouldn't necessarily have high a DR per inch value in GURPS anyway.

However if your saying that even with the above assumption in place the best Iron for armour at those TL's should top out at 55, then I guess you and David Pulver have drawn different conclusions.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-14-2016 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 10-14-2016, 02:26 PM   #63
Anthony
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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However if your saying that even with the above assumption in place the best Iron for armour at those TL's should top out at 55, then I guess you and David Pulver have drawn different conclusions.
That 52-55 range is iron with no significant flaws. If it's doing better than that it's actually steel or alloy (note: while typical alloying materials aren't isolated until TL 5, it's possible to produce alloys earlier because of natural impurities in specific iron sources -- for example, meteoric iron contains nickel).
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Old 10-15-2016, 02:04 AM   #64
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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That 52-55 range is iron with no significant flaws. If it's doing better than that it's actually steel or alloy (note: while typical alloying materials aren't isolated until TL 5, it's possible to produce alloys earlier because of natural impurities in specific iron sources -- for example, meteoric iron contains nickel).
Cool cheers, I have to say I was a bit surprised that the first article gave good iron a DR per inch of 68 only 2 less than RHAe! So yeah that could well be an example of an alloy that just happens to be called "iron good".

Out of interest what calculations are you're using to derive DR per inch values from real world materials here? It would be interesting to see the mechanism behind this. Of course the problem here is that's just one variable when it comes to assigning game values to historical and generic materials described in the article.

Anyway cheers for your info

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Old 10-16-2016, 03:25 AM   #65
Anthony
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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Out of interest what calculations are you're using to derive DR per inch values from real world materials here?
Wasn't using calculations per se, I was using historical armor figures which rated nickel-steel as about 30% stronger than iron as armor. Of course, that was mostly studying naval armor, at thicknesses vastly greater than any personal armor ever imagined, and may not be precisely equivalent to RHA, but it seemed a credible approximation.
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Old 10-16-2016, 05:19 AM   #66
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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Wasn't using calculations per se, I was using historical armor figures which rated nickel-steel as about 30% stronger than iron as armor. Of course, that was mostly studying naval armor, at thicknesses vastly greater than any personal armor ever imagined, and may not be precisely equivalent to RHA, but it seemed a credible approximation.
Ah OK, cool

Cheers

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Old 10-25-2016, 03:50 AM   #67
Magus
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

So...go with Pyramid on high-tech versions of low-tech armor? When should I use the different TL7-8 steels from Pyramid #85 and Low-tech II?
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Old 10-25-2016, 06:19 AM   #68
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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So...go with Pyramid on high-tech versions of low-tech armor? When should I use the different TL7-8 steels from Pyramid #85 and Low-tech II?
Whenever you think they should be available within those TLs and depending on the resources of who's doing it, I'd say. Ultimately they are just a guide to what's possible at those TL's
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:37 AM   #69
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

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So...go with Pyramid on high-tech versions of low-tech armor? When should I use the different TL7-8 steels from Pyramid #85 and Low-tech II?
When interested in maximum realism and dealing mostly with bullets and fragments go with stats from HT whenever possible. Stuff in HT is based off of that sort of penetration in the Real World and such penetration has been intensely studied for Real World reasons.

When dealing with LT or UT stats are based off of an arbitrary and gamist system that has become detailed and relatively internally consistent over the years. Penetration of LT armor is seldom checked against hard numbers (because there are very few) and Gurps wounding mechanism is obviously not maximally simulationist.

It is to be hoped that the latest edition of LT has brought some better educated estimates but they just aren't as reality checked as the numbers in HT. They realistically can't be.

When not dealing with RW verifiable numbers go with whatever you prefer and/or whatever works better for your game.
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:08 PM   #70
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: High/Ultra-Tech Versions of Low-Tech Armor

I remember in my old thrust vest that the sides would be the worst place to aim, as the thrustvest inserts and the vest were designed to overlap there!
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