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Old 10-16-2016, 03:30 AM   #1
McAllister
 
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Default Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

I want to jump as far as possible in combat, but RAW tells me to take two consecutive Concentrate manuevers before I jump or I get my distance halved, and it also tells me I can double my distance by getting a running start. Which of these is correct, based on Basic Move 5? All rules on b. 352, afaik.

A) Concentrate, Concentrate, Move to run, Move to Jump: results in (2 x 10) - 3 = 17 feet.

I don't like this interpretation because the Concentrate maneuvers "assume you take the time to crouch and prepare for the jump." What sense does it make to crouch, prepare for the jump, and then start running? So when I actually jump, I'm not in a crouch at all? And furthermore, are you telling me I could shave two seconds off the time this takes with two levels of Compartmentalized Mind??

B) Concentrating and a running start are mutually exclusive in combat. Jumping from a crouch (that is to say, following two Concentrate maneuvers) is (2 x 5) - 3 = 7 feet. Jumping from a running start is {(2 x 10) - 3} / 2 = 8.5 feet, because it's halved for not having Concentrated first. Jumping out of combat can be 17 feet because... reasons?

Alright, this next one isn't RAW, but it's the closest I can come to RAI.

C) All-Out Move (Concentrate) to run and Concentrate, All-Out Move (Concentrate) again, and Move to jump. I'm inventing the All-Out Move (Concentrate) maneuver to let you Concentrate for the purposes of jumping while performing a full Move, but prohibiting any active defense. This makes sense as to why it's all so much simpler out of combat: they were assuming All-Out Move (Concentrate) exists out of combat the whole time, and didn't want to open the can of worms that would be allowing it as a combat maneuver, like wizards casting at a sprint and whatnot. Which just seems like another reason why these should be Ready maneuvers instead of Concentrates, but I digress.

Doesn't this make things easier? If I'm already sprinting away from zombies, and I round a corner to see a three-foot pile of debris ahead, I'm not going to get my best jump distance by stopping, taking two seconds to perform calculations in my head, and then start running again! I'm going to focus on running as fast as I can without looking over my shoulder; if the zombies can catch me, I'm not going to dodge them. I'm just going to get up to a sprint, watch the obstacle, and try to time my jump as well as possible to sail over it.

And if you're like me, you'll decide it's actually All-Out Move (Ready) and jumping requires Ready maneuvers. Maybe AoM (Ready) can be generalized to other Ready maneuvers, but making any Ready maneuver unrelated to moving requires a Running roll at -2 to avoid tripping or dropping something; reloading while running sounds possible, but risky.

So should I accept that A makes sense for reasons? Is there a compelling reason not to implement All-Out Move like this? Is this much easier than I've been thinking it is and I missed something? I'd love to know!

Last edited by McAllister; 10-16-2016 at 03:32 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-16-2016, 05:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

D.) A running start simply replaces the need to concentrate.

At least that's how I do it.
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

The Concentrate version is for standing jumps. Running starts are of course for running jumps. Both the High Jump and Broad Jump sections that lead the Jumping section make this distinction in their heights/distance formulas. The Jumping During Combat section later introduces the rule to skip the Concentrate at the cost of halving the distance, but of course that only applies when the crouch is relevant to start with -- that is, when you're doing a standing jump.

The text isn't written to be read, understood, and applied in any random sentence order. Start at the beginning and read the page, and the context seems to make it fairly straightforward.

Last edited by Anaraxes; 10-16-2016 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 10-16-2016, 02:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister
I want to jump as far as possible in combat, but RAW tells me to take two consecutive Concentrate maneuvers before I jump or I get my distance halved, and it also tells me I can double my distance by getting a running start. Which of these is correct, based on Basic Move 5? All rules on b. 352, afaik.

<snip>

So should I accept that A makes sense for reasons? Is there a compelling reason not to implement All-Out Move like this? Is this much easier than I've been thinking it is and I missed something? I'd love to know!
D) None of the above.

Jumping During Combat is very clear, if you don’t take two consecutive Concentrate maneuvers, the distances achieved from the jumping distance formulas [emphasis mine] is halved. The jumping distance formulas include the option of a running start, so the sequence is: Concentrate, Concentrate, Move, Move (Jump). This is almost A) but your resulting broad jump distance is incorrect.

Your standing broad jump distance (assuming Concentration is achieved) is (2 x 5) – 3 = 7’.

Your maximum running broad jump distance is then the lesser of (2 x 10) – 3 = 17’ or 2 x (standing broad jump = 7’) = 14’, limiting your running broad jump to 14’ with two consecutive Concentrate maneuvers.

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 10-16-2016 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:37 PM   #5
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
D.) A running start simply replaces the need to concentrate.

At least that's how I do it.
I ignore all of it. Taking 2 Concentrate Maneuvers in the middle of combat is nonsensical. These are rules for situations that never arise in gameplay.

You could proceed directly to "all standing jumps in Combat are halved in distance" but this isn't a very common situation either. Even Diving for Cover is already a Step rather than a jump during combat.
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I ignore all of it. Taking 2 Concentrate Maneuvers in the middle of combat is nonsensical. These are rules for situations that never arise in gameplay.
I disagree, simply because it HAS arisen in play for me. In a dungeon fantasy game I placed a pit at the base of a flight of stairs that led up and down from the main dungeon. The pit was 10ft across, short enough that a running jump clears it easily, but long enough that you need to take the 2 concentrate maneuvers in combat or you're trying to catch the edge with your arms. In a number of cases the PC's were forced back to the stairs and had to hurry across, providing cover for each other as they jumped.

I've always interpreted the 2 Concentrate maneuvers as taking the time to mentally pace out the jump, to make sure you are on your take off foot as close as possible to the edge. For a standing jump it's building up momentum in your arms and knees before kicking off.
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Old 10-17-2016, 01:30 AM   #7
McAllister
 
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

@VariousRen: thank you for your example. Also, how would you feel about making them Ready maneuvers? Or would you be comfortable with Compartmentalized Mind cutting down on the time? I feel the same way about building momentum, and Concentrate just doesn't make sense to me.

@Curmudgeon and Anaraxes: jumping in combat is obviously neither "very clear" nor "fairly straightforward," given the disagreement about it. Curmudgeon is correct that I was misapplying the sentence "maximum running broad-jump distance is twice standing broad-jump distance," but otherwise, his understanding of RAW roughly mirrors my own. "Jumping during combat" never distinguishes between standing and running jumping, and I'm not able to find any support for running jumps being exempt in the text.

@All: any thoughts on the All-Out Move I proposed? If nothing else, I think it bridges the gap between Anaraxes' and Curmudgeon's understanding of RAW.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:42 AM   #8
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

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Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
I disagree, simply because it HAS arisen in play for me. In a dungeon fantasy game I placed a pit at the base of a flight of stairs that .
If your enemy does not make a really good attempt to kill you while you're standing there Concentrating you're not "in combat" you're only somewhere near it. :)
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Old 10-17-2016, 05:32 PM   #9
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
@VariousRen: thank you for your example. Also, how would you feel about making them Ready maneuvers? Or would you be comfortable with Compartmentalized Mind cutting down on the time? I feel the same way about building momentum, and Concentrate just doesn't make sense to me.
Personally I'd make it a concentrate and a ready, in that order. I could imagine a person with Compartmentalized Mind or ETS being able to set themselves up for a jump faster than a normal person, they just seem to start running and launch perfectly without any effort.
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Old 10-17-2016, 05:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Jumping: Sequence of Maneuvers

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If your enemy does not make a really good attempt to kill you while you're standing there Concentrating you're not "in combat" you're only somewhere near it. :)
You've never fought a fighting retreat then! I can guarantee that the orcs were making a good attempt at killing the jumpers, they just had to deal with the knight and swashbuckler in the way. When the phrase "In Combat" is used in Basic I believe they are just earmarking it as something that's only important in a 1 second time scale. The two maneuvers sill take place if you aren't in combat, they just aren't important.
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