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Old 08-08-2016, 10:44 PM   #11
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

I guess, but that means that the real expenses have numerous non-physical cultural aspects like licensing and blueprints.
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Old 08-08-2016, 11:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
This is +50% to DR/in, but it's also Weight *2/3.

That isn't outrageously out of line, compared to the improvements seen at mid-TL8 to late TL8 with Ballistic Polymer.

On the other hand, how close does this get to canonical UT and THS Nanoweave suits? Are they protective enough while still being flexible? Too light? Too heavy?
I used the value of the vests from UT:172 because the chest was easy to calculate(the vest came in at 2.016lb with the cutting edge armor design). The rest of the concealable armors do not work so well, as the % of area that different body armor pieces take is really different between cutting edge and the UT tailored armors. There are things like feet are 10% of full body in UT but 3.3% in cutting edge. So you need to pick one or the other for the coverage numbers.


The tactical vests do not fit any other armor as for example building them with UT tailored armor from the concealable armor by making it heavy would result in about the same protection, but less than half the weight.

A tailored "heavy" reflex torso+groin protection is 4.2 lb and 18/6 DR and $630
A Reflex Tactical Vest is 9lb, DR 18/7 and $900.

So you have to throw away some data points if you want a consistent system. It is the same as with rest of UT, there soooooo many bugs.

But if you use the Concealable Ballistic Armors as base then they work fine with cutting edge armor design. A nanoweave suit comes to 8.0703lb and $1210.55 so the rounding to 8lb/1200 is the same as the UT value.

As for thicknesses:
UT limits them to 1.5 times the base value but cutting edge allow much thicker armors. UT max for making the concealable armors heavy is at 1/5 inch, cutting edge allows for 1/2 inch.

As for the UT tac suits, theu incorporate things like climate control and have different DR progression with much higher DR against non ballistic threats, so they are likely some other material.


Quote:
THS has TL9 Carbonweave, Medium with DR 24 and around 15 lbs. for a suit. It seems a match for 'Basic Nanoweave', but I haven't run the numbers.
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Old 08-08-2016, 11:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

I'll take a stab at some of these.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'll be using David Pulver's 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' article from Pyramid #85 in our TL10 retro-cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk/biopunk campaign.*

The article has Basic Nanoweave appearing at late TL9, becoming much less expensive at TL10. The text specifies that Basic Nanoweave is not as effective as TL10 Nanoweave.

1) What would the stats of TL10 Nanoweave set forth in the style of the article be?

In other words, what are its WM, CM DR/in Max DR, Notes and Construction?
WM: 0.21

CM: Don't know for sure but I think the $150 at TL10 is for the full TL10 version. If you don't think it is then I'd say it's no more then $200/lbs.

DR/in: 143

Max DR: 72

Notes and Construction should be as TL9 Nanoweave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
2) What are the stats for a plausible advanced form of arachnoweave made at TL10?
This is just a guess buuut....

WM: 0.23
CM: $150
DR/in: 121
Max DR: 61

This pure speculation on my part though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
3) What TL10 rigid armour would be popular at TL10?

What material is metal-matrix laminate composites (that THS p. 160 says Clamshell Cuirass is made from) in 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' terms? What stats does it have?
Use Titanium nanocomposite, all the "nanocomposites" in the article are actually matrix composites.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
What other practical armour materials might be used in 2100?
Well diamondoid is pretty much the settings equivalent of a "Chobham" type armor. It has WM 0.06, CM $350, Dr/in 247 and a min DR of 99.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
4) How restrictive, uncomfortable and sweaty are TL9+ flexible armours designed to look like clothing?
I'd say not really that restrictive if the clothes aren't any heavier to wear and aren't terribly thicker then normal ones, so long as its properly designed though I'd I say any comfortable armor would need to have the Optimized Fabric option.


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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Will fabrics that have useful DR always be less comfortable in tropical heat than DR 0 clothing?
Once again, depends on thickness though most material probably aren't going to breath like cotton (well arachnoweave might).

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Are there important differences between the materials listed in the 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' article?
If you mean in relation to their textures, how comfortable they feel on your skin and how well they breath. Yes, but unfortunately I haven't found any articles discussing these facts in regards to versions of these materials currently in real world labs sadly.


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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
5) How do various clothing options like memswear affect detailed armour construction?

Which, if any, ballistic fabrics can take options such as buzzwear, memswear and varicloth (THS p. 146; UT p. 39) without altering weight or DR? Or should such options require the use of layers of non-protective fabric, slightly increasing weight as well as adding to cost?
I'd say all of them could be designed to incorporate buzzwear and the like without altering weight or DR... well.... they should realistically increase the weight but at TL10 I'd imagine that the tiny micro motors used in those materials would be lite enough at a human scale that the added weight would be rounded off anyways. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the assumptions behind this tech to give a meaningful guess at how much this stuff would weight per square foot of coverage if you wanted to try scaling it.

Hope I was of some help.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I guess, but that means that the real expenses have numerous non-physical cultural aspects like licensing and blueprints.
Yeah, which means that popular models will have prices more or less in line with the calculations in the article, as the IP costs are spread out over a huge customer base.

On the other hand, it is a realistic reason to increase the cost of any PC-designed armour by an arbitrary number, particularly if it doesn't seem like such a design would be a good seller.

Of course, PCs with 'jailbroken' minifacs and connections to the TSA webs might be able to ignore IP costs for things they make, but that would make them data pirates and potentially targets for the WTO.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
on 2:
If you want the thing to work as you describe then you just have to tweak the values as you see fit.

The "realistic" Arachnoweave is just slightly better than STF Liquid Armor in protection/weight unit and thickness, but much more expensive and is flexible when thin.

One way to get better Arachnoweave could be to postulate that you have TL 11 Arachnoweave available due to the TL 11 biotech level of THS. But maybe at the same time limit it to say 1/8 inch with thicker layers becoming rigid and cumbersome(-1 DX/extra 1/8 inch layer) or something...
The article specifically says that TL10 Arachonoweave, which is outside the scope of the article's coverage, would be more effective than TL9 Arachnoweave.

So I'd like to stat that Arachnoweave. What would best fit the material I am looking for is dropping the Weight to 2/3 of the Weight of the TL9 Arachnoweave and then declaring that Arachnoweave can take memswear modification without extra weight.

This makes it extremely desirable for clothing that is not supposed to look like armour, but the relatively low DR (for TL10) means that it won't be used in many tactical suits.

I was thinking that merely reducing WM might not justify raising the price up to full TL9 price. Say $500, to fit the THS price of an Arachnoweave vest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
on 4:
If you have climate control systems available then you eliminate the biggest problem: those materials do not breathe.

I wore a protective vest daily in the late 1980s and after a short time you do not really notice the extra weight(about 2.7kg in my case) and thickness(11mm). But on hot days it got sweaty due to the material not breathing.

Yes there is a difference between materials, but most likely anything thick enough to protect would not breathe as well as thinner materials.
Memswear modifications is pretty much smart fitting clothes that breathe as well as any clothes can breathe. I do not know, however, how realistic that is with ballistic fabric. On one hand, the kind of technology that is described for 'reflex' armour seems like it might breathe pretty well in the right configuration. On the other hand, loose weave breathening clothing seems like a contradictory design constraint on protective suits.

The primary choices that PCs and major NPCs have will be TL9 Arachnoweave, TL10 Advanced Arachnoweave, TL9 Basic Nanoweave ('Carbonweave') and TL10 Nanoweave.

It would be in line with THS source material if it was easier to get light Arachnoweave either with built-in memswear climate control or layered with cloth that had it, but I don't know how plausible that is. Surely, if that's possible, the technology exists for Nanoweave as well.

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
on 5:
Realistically most of such would likely be on the coverings and fastenings. Basically today any armor will have a "cloth cover" as it is easier to sew the cloth that the actual armor panels. In future some armors might be made without such I guess, but I would not bet on it, given that the relative difficulty would not change. So I would just assume that you can add such without extra weight.
That seems generous.
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Old 08-18-2016, 03:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
[TL10 Nanoweave]
WM: 0.21

CM: Don't know for sure but I think the $150 at TL10 is for the full TL10 version. If you don't think it is then I'd say it's no more then $200/lbs.

DR/in: 143

Max DR: 72

Notes and Construction should be as TL9 Nanoweave.
Going by how the rest of the article works, the Cost $150 is for fabric with the stats of TL9 Basic Nanoweave at TL10, by which time it should be much easier to manufacture and more advanced substitutes are available.

Why did you decide to drop WM to 0.21? Is there any reason to assume that the kind of Nanoweave used for ballistic fabric gets inherently lighter for a given volume, as opposed to just becoming stronger per weight and volume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
This is just a guess buuut....

WM: 0.23
CM: $150
DR/in: 121
Max DR: 61

This pure speculation on my part though.
TL9 Arachnoweave is WM 0.3 to the WM 0.32 of TL9 Basic Nanoweave. Any particular reason to reverse the relative weights of the two fabrics at the next TL?

If it can be scientifically justified, the kind of TL10 Arachnoweave that I'd prefer to use in my campaign has the same DR as the TL9 Arachnoweave, but the improvements consist of being as much lighter for this performance as can be plausibly imagined and in being as comfortable as possible.

The setting role for Arachnoweave, if this can be done without violence to real-world science, is as clothing that will stop many holdout pistol bullets, but not look anything like armour and can be worn all day even in hot climates. It would help if it could breathe more than other ballistic fabrics by default and I assume that designing climate control systems into it is extremely common.

Nanoweave is the primary flexible fabric used by affluent militaries and police forces, with TL9 Basic Nanoweave, under the generic name Carbonweave, being the most popular ballistic fabric worldwide. Both kinds would benefit from some form of climate control, of course, at least for whole body suits meant to be worn all day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
Use Titanium nanocomposite, all the "nanocomposites" in the article are actually matrix composites.
Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
Well diamondoid is pretty much the settings equivalent of a "Chobham" type armor. It has WM 0.06, CM $350, Dr/in 247 and a min DR of 99.
I'm at work, so I don't have the books open. What is the source for these numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
I'd say not really that restrictive if the clothes aren't any heavier to wear and aren't terribly thicker then normal ones, so long as its properly designed though I'd I say any comfortable armor would need to have the Optimized Fabric option.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
Once again, depends on thickness though most material probably aren't going to breath like cotton (well arachnoweave might).
I'd really like to be able to assume that arachoweave could be made more breathable than nanoweave, as that would provide a justification for the Transhuman Space setting assumption that extremely light armour that does not look like armour is made from arachnoweave rather than nanoweave.

But is there any realistic reason to assume this? High DR seems to be a design goal very much opposite to porous and breathable, regardless of material. To take a low TL example, silk clothing may usually be light and cool, but silk armour is made from densely layered raw silk and is not particularly porous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
If you mean in relation to their textures, how comfortable they feel on your skin and how well they breath. Yes, but unfortunately I haven't found any articles discussing these facts in regards to versions of these materials currently in real world labs sadly.
At TL0 to TL8, a universal constant has been that anything designed as armour is significantly inferior to anything designed as summer clothing at keeping the wearer comfortable and cool.

One assumption that science fiction settings often make is that climate control and smart fabrics will allow for clothing that is cool and comfortable while still having enough DR to stop attacks from many or most concealable civilian personal weapons.

I'd like to know how to best accomplish that, using actual technological progress, rather than handwavium. Assuming, of course, that it is possible and practical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
I'd say all of them could be designed to incorporate buzzwear and the like without altering weight or DR... well.... they should realistically increase the weight but at TL10 I'd imagine that the tiny micro motors used in those materials would be lite enough at a human scale that the added weight would be rounded off anyways. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the assumptions behind this tech to give a meaningful guess at how much this stuff would weight per square foot of coverage if you wanted to try scaling it.
I realise that for proper tactical wear, the extra weight is of minimal concern, as it is a tiny fraction of the total weight. On the other hand, for armour that looks like t-shirts or underwear, at 1/6th thickness, the weight of outer and inner layers of memswear might well be significant.

That is, if Arachnoweave or Nanoweave cannot be designed as memswear itself. Which I have no idea about.

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Originally Posted by The_Ryujin View Post
Hope I was of some help.
Certainly, you were.
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Old 08-18-2016, 12:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Going by how the rest of the article works, the Cost $150 is for fabric with the stats of TL9 Basic Nanoweave at TL10, by which time it should be much easier to manufacture and more advanced substitutes are available.
Kinda what I figured.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Why did you decide to drop WM to 0.21? Is there any reason to assume that the kind of Nanoweave used for ballistic fabric gets inherently lighter for a given volume, as opposed to just becoming stronger per weight and volume?
Weight Modifier (WM) is measure of strength relative to weight so if a material gets stronger but stay the same weight its WM lowers automatically.

For example Mild steel has a DR of around 52/inch while RHA has DR 70/inch but they both have the same specific gravity. Because of this mild steel has a WM of 0.78 while RHA has a WM of 0.58.

The formula for WM is (Material specific gravity (in pounds) /12)/DR per inch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
TL9 Arachnoweave is WM 0.3 to the WM 0.32 of TL9 Basic Nanoweave. Any particular reason to reverse the relative weights of the two fabrics at the next TL?
It's do to the way GURPS, or at lest David handles armor getting better at higher TL. It follows a slight variation of the Speed/Size/Range Table and in fact can be seen in action on pg 285 of the Basic Set. Basically you divide a materials WM by 1.5 at one TL higher, by 2 at two TL higher, by 3 at 3 TL higher and so on.

So in short, 0.32/1.5 equals 0.213333~ rounded off to 0.21.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If it can be scientifically justified, the kind of TL10 Arachnoweave that I'd prefer to use in my campaign has the same DR as the TL9 Arachnoweave, but the improvements consist of being as much lighter for this performance as can be plausibly imagined and in being as comfortable as possible.
Well keep in mind, I am very much a layman when it comes to biology, especially that of arachnid, so take this with a grain of salt.

I think you can, technically, but at that point you'd be using the spider as a biological factory to produce something that isn't really spider silk anymore. The only way to lower the Archnoweaves weight without changing its strength is by changing its molecular structure so its less dense. Most of the real world research I've seen has been about making spider silk stronger for the same weight then making it lighter for the same strength.

However, if you want it to be the same DR per inch and have the spiders are making something only distantly related to spider silk then I'm not sure how much lighter you can get it. Spider silk is already really light at around 1.3g/cc or so and even carbon nanotubes are roughly the same specific gravity. Pure speculation here but I'd say I spider silk/carbon nanofiber composite would at best lower this to 1g/cc.

This would give TL10 Archnoweave a WM of 0.25 instead of 0.21.

Personally I'd just say at this point is that bio-engineered spiders are how they make Nanoweave if this is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The setting role for Arachnoweave, if this can be done without violence to real-world science, is as clothing that will stop many holdout pistol bullets, but not look anything like armour and can be worn all day even in hot climates. It would help if it could breathe more than other ballistic fabrics by default and I assume that designing climate control systems into it is extremely common.
Being light and looking like clothes while being able to stop small pistol rounds is totally fine, we can almost do that now.

Unfortunately there's not a lot of data out there on how well it breaths or how comfortable it is to wear since we're just barely at the point now we can do stuff like this. As you can figure right now they're more concerned about it stopping bullets then being comfortable.

Though now that I think about it, the Arachnoweave would probably be dipped into a bounding agent, probably a shear thickening one, to help "brace" the threads and this will probably stiffen it. Now how stiff with this make it? Given that this is TL10 tech... its hard to say.

Now, once again pure speculation, if I had to guess, I'd say that Arachnoweave is stiffer and less comfortable then pure spider silk but no more then clothes made from cheap-synthetic fibers are today. Yeah, it won't breath like Egyptian cotton but I think its a fair trade off if it saves your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Nanoweave is the primary flexible fabric used by affluent militaries and police forces, with TL9 Basic Nanoweave, under the generic name Carbonweave, being the most popular ballistic fabric worldwide. Both kinds would benefit from some form of climate control, of course, at least for whole body suits meant to be worn all day.
This post might be of help

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Thanks.
You're welcome :D

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm at work, so I don't have the books open. What is the source for these numbers?
David himself though the Max DR stat was an assumption made by me based on the values given for similar materials in Cutting-Edge. You can find its 3rd edition stats in In the Well and Under Pressure, most 3rd ultra-tech armor got "down shifted" in 4th edition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'd really like to be able to assume that arachoweave could be made more breathable than nanoweave, as that would provide a justification for the Transhuman Space setting assumption that extremely light armour that does not look like armour is made from arachnoweave rather than nanoweave.

But is there any realistic reason to assume this? High DR seems to be a design goal very much opposite to porous and breathable, regardless of material. To take a low TL example, silk clothing may usually be light and cool, but silk armour is made from densely layered raw silk and is not particularly porous.

At TL0 to TL8, a universal constant has been that anything designed as armour is significantly inferior to anything designed as summer clothing at keeping the wearer comfortable and cool.

One assumption that science fiction settings often make is that climate control and smart fabrics will allow for clothing that is cool and comfortable while still having enough DR to stop attacks from many or most concealable civilian personal weapons.

I'd like to know how to best accomplish that, using actual technological progress, rather than handwavium. Assuming, of course, that it is possible and practical.
As before, sadly this is above my pay grade. I just don't know enough to give you a hard answer here. I wonder if Anthony or Malloyd could chime in on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I realise that for proper tactical wear, the extra weight is of minimal concern, as it is a tiny fraction of the total weight. On the other hand, for armour that looks like t-shirts or underwear, at 1/6th thickness, the weight of outer and inner layers of memswear might well be significant.

That is, if Arachnoweave or Nanoweave cannot be designed as memswear itself. Which I have no idea about.
Well I've seen micro motors weighing only 0.1grams capable producing 5 their weight in thrust today, so I can see it that kind of tech only weighting 0.05grams at TL10. Now add to the fact that you probable don't need that much power for memeswear I can see it adding less then a fraction of a gram to the weight of typical clothing.

Till we get something better, I propose that memswear weights 0.0005bs per square foot.

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Certainly, you were.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

Hello Gentlemen,
While trying to see if I could use the same systematic approach for Cutting Edge armors for Classic Ultratech, I wondered if there was a way to estimate surface area of individuals more closely, thus allowing for some truly "custom" armor choices...

The following two URL's involved Basic Surface Area calculations. One URL (the one immediately below) asks for the weight and height of the individual, and calculates the surface area of the individual.

http://www.calculator.net/body-surfa...alculator.html

The other, lists the various formulas used for BAS. Since it is a Wikipedia article, I don't know how accurate that information is. It is however, a way to have some fun with your characters...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_surface_area

I suspected that at 6'3 (I be shrinking a little in my old age alas), and 311 lbs of weight, that I'd be considered a little bit larger than 21 point something square feet in surface area. Granted, I could stand to loose about 60 lbs to reach a weight more in keeping with what I weighed at my best (I was skin and bones at 180 lbs in 1978, final growth around 240's, and anything above that was padding so to speak).

So Du Bois formula:

Youthful skinny: 2.13 Square meters or 22.96 Square feet

Mid-life best: 2.39 square meters or 25.77 Square feet

Current: 2.65 square meters OR 28.49 Square feet

Anyone who gets the "standardized" sized armor could legitimately be treated as if they were in "ill fitting armor" perhaps?

It shouldn't be too hard to create an excel spreadsheet to do the calculations, or even a VB.NET based program (or VBA for that matter) to do the calculations for you. The Hard part might be in creating the armor entry for a character in GURPS CHARACTER ASSISTANT.

Just a few extra "thoughts". By the by, thank you for posting the climate control aspect that was missing from the final draft of Ultratech.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: Cutting-Edge Armor Design at TL10

Now if I could only find the person who created the data file for GCA that permitted one to create armor by the GURPS LOW TECH rules. THAT would be awesome to use the same approach to making armor but substituting the Cutting Edge rules instead of the LOW TECH rules. :)
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