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Old 11-30-2015, 11:40 PM   #1
Raekai
 
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Default Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

Hey, all.

I'm back with another quick question. Could you put Reputation's modifiers on another disadvantage like Secret? Let's say I'm an alien. In Area A, that's totally acceptable and I can identify as an alien openly and freely without repercussion (save for those bastards with Intolerance). In Area B, it's quite possible that I would be executed for being an alien. So, is that Secret (I am an alien; Possible Death; Large class: Area B *1/2) [-15]? Reputation has the frequency of recognition modifier, which, in my mind, is pretty relatable to the idea of Secret.

So, does that work? If not, is Reputation the best way to model this? Or what?

Thanks!
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:44 PM   #2
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

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Originally Posted by Raekai View Post
Hey, all.

I'm back with another quick question. Could you put Reputation's modifiers on another disadvantage like Secret? Let's say I'm an alien. In Area A, that's totally acceptable and I can identify as an alien openly and freely without repercussion (save for those bastards with Intolerance). In Area B, it's quite possible that I would be executed for being an alien. So, is that Secret (I am an alien; Possible Death; Large class: Area B *1/2) [-15]? Reputation has the frequency of recognition modifier, which, in my mind, is pretty relatable to the idea of Secret.

So, does that work? If not, is Reputation the best way to model this? Or what?

Thanks!
That's actually pretty cool. I know GURPS Social Engineering plays with adding Reputation modifiers to other things (or it was discussed in playtest at least) so I don't see anything off by that. Actually, that could work pretty well for some campaigns. It brings up some weirdness like why you don't have a secret in A, but not B, but that can be under rug swept for the most part.
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Old 12-01-2015, 12:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

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Originally Posted by Raekai View Post
Hey, all.

I'm back with another quick question. Could you put Reputation's modifiers on another disadvantage like Secret?!
Another advantage yes. Secret in particular...no. In a situation like that the location modifier would not be on the Secret itself, but on the disadvantage you get if the Secret is exposed. Reputation/Enemy. Even if being an alien on your homeworld is no big deal your homeworld is full of people who could potentially drop a dime on you with the authorities on the other world. And if adventuring happens on your homeworld then that means you will be making enemies on your homeworld. Secret applies just as much when you are at home as when you are away. Contrariwise if no adventuring happens on your homeworld, then it isn't really part of the campaign setting and had no point value.
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

I personally feel Secret is a bogus disadvantage.

Take social stigma for being a monster.

To me the negative reputation is cause enough to become "Possible Death". We see in real world how intolerance levels have lead to deaths. Why do you need to flag a negative reputation with possible death?

Going through some very quick head math, all secrets and disadvantages to reveal secrets could easily fit into Negative reputation and help GM work it into a campaign alot easier and just have the person hardly recognized.

A bit of hand-waiving can have the roll to "Recognize" the individual simply be a roll to "Uncover" the secret.

Working example:

I'm a vampire, this would be Social Stigma (Monster), which is -3 reaction, maybe Social Stigma (Dead) in some cases for -4.

If people can't recognize me as a vampire, then you apply the modifier for frequency of recognition. So if it's 7 or less to identify me as a vampire, that's -5 disadvantage which makes way more sense.

Otherwise you have this going on which I have seen exploited to get points back:

A typical easily discernible Vampire is -15 points for monster, which means I risk death every day openly.

Yet someone who has a Secret that they're a vampire, gets -30 points because they MIGHT be lynched instead of the vampire who is ALWAYS lynched? Why do I get more points for something that doesn't always affect me versus someone always affected?
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:39 AM   #5
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

This also would halt the stacking negative points gained for keeping your monstrosity a secret. Things like "Pallor, No Pulsive, No Reflection, No Shadow" etc, don't suddenly turn keeping a secret of being killed turn into like -50+ points.

If you are keeping your obvious monstrous traits secret, this should be LESS negative points, not more!
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
That's actually pretty cool. I know GURPS Social Engineering plays with adding Reputation modifiers to other things (or it was discussed in playtest at least) so I don't see anything off by that. Actually, that could work pretty well for some campaigns. It brings up some weirdness like why you don't have a secret in A, but not B, but that can be under rug swept for the most part.
Thank you for your feedback!

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Another advantage yes. Secret in particular...no. In a situation like that the location modifier would not be on the Secret itself, but on the disadvantage you get if the Secret is exposed. Reputation/Enemy. Even if being an alien on your homeworld is no big deal your homeworld is full of people who could potentially drop a dime on you with the authorities on the other world. And if adventuring happens on your homeworld then that means you will be making enemies on your homeworld. Secret applies just as much when you are at home as when you are away. Contrariwise if no adventuring happens on your homeworld, then it isn't really part of the campaign setting and had no point value.
The campaign will take place in both areas. An alien character would have to lay pretty low in one of the areas.

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Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
I personally feel Secret is a bogus disadvantage.

Take social stigma for being a monster.

To me the negative reputation is cause enough to become "Possible Death". We see in real world how intolerance levels have lead to deaths. Why do you need to flag a negative reputation with possible death?

Going through some very quick head math, all secrets and disadvantages to reveal secrets could easily fit into Negative reputation and help GM work it into a campaign alot easier and just have the person hardly recognized.

A bit of hand-waiving can have the roll to "Recognize" the individual simply be a roll to "Uncover" the secret.

Working example:

I'm a vampire, this would be Social Stigma (Monster), which is -3 reaction, maybe Social Stigma (Dead) in some cases for -4.

If people can't recognize me as a vampire, then you apply the modifier for frequency of recognition. So if it's 7 or less to identify me as a vampire, that's -5 disadvantage which makes way more sense.

Otherwise you have this going on which I have seen exploited to get points back:

A typical easily discernible Vampire is -15 points for monster, which means I risk death every day openly.

Yet someone who has a Secret that they're a vampire, gets -30 points because they MIGHT be lynched instead of the vampire who is ALWAYS lynched? Why do I get more points for something that doesn't always affect me versus someone always affected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
This also would halt the stacking negative points gained for keeping your monstrosity a secret. Things like "Pallor, No Pulsive, No Reflection, No Shadow" etc, don't suddenly turn keeping a secret of being killed turn into like -50+ points.

If you are keeping your obvious monstrous traits secret, this should be LESS negative points, not more!
My situation is a little bit different because I'm not comparing vampires to humans. These aliens look pretty close to humans. Also, what if the Secret wasn't related to race/species? What if the Secret is that I'm a magic-user? I have to keep that a secret or I'll have armed inquisitors at my door, ready to kill me. I don't feel like Secret is a bogus disadvantage (which is cool; people have different opinions!) because it can lead to Reputation and the Enemy disadvantages as well as Social Stigma and lost Advantages. Maybe a character's secret is revealed and he develops Paranoia, worrying that even friendly people are out to get him! Plus, it doubles the value of the Secret. So, if you have a -15 point Secret, you'll end up taking -30 points in disadvantages when your Secret is uncovered. That's a big deal. Enemy (Inquisitors) is not a fun thing to have.

Maybe Secret is just flawed. It might be better to build the disadvantages of what would happen if the secret were revealed, group those, and divide the point cost in half since they are secret. That's just reverse-engineering what Secret is. I think this might work because I think you're right, people have been killed over Reputations, Social Stigmas, and Intolerances! So, I could build characters with those (plus Enemy, most likely) and price it half-off since it's supposed to be a Secret (and then half-off again since only Area A cares about this stuff).
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:43 AM   #7
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

My point wasn't vampires themselves, but "Monster" is a clearly identifiable "Killed for reaction" disadvantage that is only worth -15. Why should a secret be worth more? It should be worth much less.

And vampires tend to be a "Hide among humans" race people can identify with.

I think you got the point I was trying to make though. Stack negative reputations and decide when they apply. I don't see the purpose of the Secret Disadvantage.
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

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Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
"Monster" is a clearly identifiable "Killed for reaction" disadvantage that is only worth -15. Why should a secret be worth more? It should be worth much less.
Exposed secrets create twice as many points of Disadvantages. In other words, they're half the value of the set of exposed Disads -- worth less, not more. It _also_ has an additional effect based on the severity of the reaction. That is, your -30 point secret not only gets you a death sentence, but also costs you 60 points of Advantages _other than the death sentence_.

"Monster" (B155) gives a -3 reaction, not an automatic death sentence. The fluff text says "you are liable to be hunted on sight", which is not the same thing as everyone including the government, Mafia, Mages' and Assassin's Guilds dropping everything in order to kill you on the spot. If that's the way you interpret it, then do you think "Monster" is really worth a mere -5 points more than "Minority"? If anything, this value seems the odd one out, not Secret.
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

If it is generally understood that you have a secret but thought different then what it is(I.E. if you are an alien mistaken for a Russian spy)then you will get the Reputation or Social Stigma appropriate for the error.
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Old 12-01-2015, 10:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Quick Question: Reputation modifiers on something like Secret?

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Exposed secrets create twice as many points of Disadvantages. In other words, they're half the value of the set of exposed Disads -- worth less, not more. It _also_ has an additional effect based on the severity of the reaction. That is, your -30 point secret not only gets you a death sentence, but also costs you 60 points of Advantages _other than the death sentence_.

"Monster" (B155) gives a -3 reaction, not an automatic death sentence. The fluff text says "you are liable to be hunted on sight", which is not the same thing as everyone including the government, Mafia, Mages' and Assassin's Guilds dropping everything in order to kill you on the spot. If that's the way you interpret it, then do you think "Monster" is really worth a mere -5 points more than "Minority"? If anything, this value seems the odd one out, not Secret.
You're digging with this explanation.

Possible Death firstly says "Possible" not a "Death Sentence". Second it also has "Lynched by a mob" which is the same as a "Monster".

Now it's wrapping everything to give less points, fine, but -60 after exposed is still godawfully high.

And that still doesn't explain all the Disadvantages that stack points on top of secret in my example, like supernatural traits on the body.

Overall I think it's better treated with disadvantages and treating the fact your hiding yourself as a mitigator.
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