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Old 11-24-2015, 05:42 PM   #51
Turhan's Bey Company
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Never read it. It's less about world-building economics and more about how players can fit into them. It's player-centric, not GM-centric.
If it's the article I'm thinking of (physical issue of Pyramid, I think #26 or #27, though available in PDF form), it's about half underlying detail, half player-facing rules.

Also, it's my first published GURPS article. It's the sort of thing I might not write these days because I'm painfully aware of how incomplete it is.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:04 PM   #52
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

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Originally Posted by Beoferret View Post
This points out something really key. In many instances, low-tech trade was conducted in such a way that modern eyes wouldn't even necessarily see it as trade. Especially important, I think, is the fact that the purpose of exchange was just as often to shore up social relationships as it was to address material concerns (shortages of materials, etc.) Profit just wasn't the main reason people traded for much of human history. Maybe one way of dealing with this would be to describe different methods of economic exchange that are linked with tech level and/or other considerations (e.g. group size, individual status, etc.). Here's some ideas:

gift-giving - "Trade" is conducted as a series of gift exchanges, usually informal. Esp. prevalent within TL 0-1 societies, serving to reinforce social bonds within and between groups, sometimes formalized into status competitions (e.g. potlatch ceremonies) between groups and/or individuals. In some situations (e.g. among the Yanomamo), visitors to a village can simply ask their hosts for items (yes, including personal possessions), which their hosts are then expected to simply hand over. Gift-giving trade emphasizes equity and reciprocity. Those who don't give or who are seen as stingy will gain bad reputations; stingy individuals may even be ostracized eventually and stingy groups will have a hard time finding allies. Within a group, a high-status individual (e.g. a leader or skilled hunter) will be expected to be especially generous. Among many American Indian peoples, for example, an especially good hunter would share their game with everyone in their village or band and wouldn't keep the best for themselves. In return, they would gain more influence and would receive more gifts from others (plus, their skill would be less likely to make others jealous, which might otherwise threaten group cohesion).
Players with characters in a setting where all/most exchange is conducted this way had better get used to focusing their efforts on social rewards for their characters and not material ones.

Elite gift-giving: I'm thinking here of the way that trade was conducted between the powers of the eastern Mediterranean during the late bronze-age. Large amounts of goods would be exchanged between rulers (including jewelry, weapons, the materials to make bronze, etc.) through state-sanctioned merchants and their ships (not sure if the ships were privately-owned, state-owned, or a mix of both). This type of high-level trade also fulfilled social and political functions as well as material, economic ones. The goods exchanged between rulers were a means of maintaining and asserting status between them (roughly equitable trade between equals, with unequal exchange between those of different status - e.g. the Egyptian pharaoh and the ruler of a small city state). The materials traded would then be used by the ruler's court, by their army, to ensure grain supplies to their people, and to reward followers. One could imagine a campaign where the characters are on one of these missions, involving fighting pirates, conducting diplomacy, getting involved in court intrigue, perhaps hiring out as mercenaries to a foreign rulers, and eventually going back home to great rewards (and more intrigue!)

Tribute and redistribution-type systems - Folks have already touched on examples of this, especially Peter in relation to northern Euro. lords and their warrior retinues (warrior characters gaining access to goods via a patron who demands a vow of loyalty, etc. in return). But you could also look at non-tribal examples, like the Mesopotamian city-states, for inspiration. Maybe this is more an example of taxation than trade though.

Anyhow, I'm sure you could think of some other examples. The trick is to get at the degree to which trade involves things other than individual material profit. The funny thing is that this might be a really hard sell for some players (I've played with some folks who were really, really invested in their character's imaginary material possessions.) And I think that pre-modern trade can be the basis for some interesting adventures, even in a TL0 setting (e.g. the party heads out to a distant land to trade items for, or otherwise gain access to, some rare, but important material (like obsidian or pipestone) for their people; wacky hijinks ensue.) Overall, this seems like a great subject with which to connect Low-Tech with Social Engineering. Definitely write this article.

Some suggested reading: The Evolution of Human Societies by Allen W. Johnson and Timothy Earle and 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric H. Cline
It is, of course possible for them to coincide; for instance there might be elaborate rules of propriety about what it is acceptable to "trade" and what it is acceptable to "give"-and what it is acceptable to steal for that matter and at which time.

For instance in our society there is gift-giving for several ceremonial purposes(religious and political rituals, mating, etc), gambling, trade in various kinds of things, speculation, investment, and other forms of exchange all acceptable in their place and considered vulgar outside-which is why people complain about the "commercialization" of Christmas. Tribute is not considered acceptable except in the form of taxation, but in other societies it was. Likewise there is no heroic hospitality code; instead we have a fairly efficient system of professional providers of shelter.
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Last edited by jason taylor; 11-24-2015 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:11 PM   #53
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

There might be a Peripatatic culture in a Low-tech system that dominates trade and has sort of an ambiguous relationship with the rest of society. Much like Irish Travellers handled the metalworking and the rest handled the food producing.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:12 PM   #54
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
If it's the article I'm thinking of (physical issue of Pyramid, I think #26 or #27, though available in PDF form), it's about half underlying detail, half player-facing rules.

Also, it's my first published GURPS article. It's the sort of thing I might not write these days because I'm painfully aware of how incomplete it is.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:08 PM   #55
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

Just got home from a Ram sale. Which led to the thought "wouldn't a large percentage of low tech trading involve livestock"
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Old 11-25-2015, 12:31 AM   #56
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

A coste per weight per distance formula seems tp me to be very useful.
While it would be hard to make it super accurate it does fit the stuff of adventure.
Take value for above and modify it by a value for perishability (at that TL) and by another value for TL and another for Seasonal or Market type.
The Roll 1d6+- mods like complimentary skills, weather, war, LC, etc and multiply that by a % for your final shipping costs.
Now you have something playable that can be used at various TL and include magic and other factors.
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Old 11-25-2015, 04:16 AM   #57
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

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Just got home from a Ram sale. Which led to the thought "wouldn't a large percentage of low tech trading involve livestock"
What you do is you kill the livestock and cast the Zombie spell on them. Saves on feed while you're transporting them... :)
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:12 AM   #58
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

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What you do is you kill the livestock and cast the Zombie spell on them. Saves on feed while you're transporting them... :)
Something tells me the meat wouldn't be so good after that...

That said, certainly magic can be used in a variety of ways to reduce transport costs. Zombies have no real upkeep cost (aside from keeping a necromancer on the crew) and can replace any number of brute laborers or beasts of burden. Preserve Food allows you to slaughter animals and only transport the meat, delivering fresh food at reduced tonnage and without needing to deal with handling and feeding the animals (note this is most useful for over water transport). Various actual transportation spells, like Flight, can allow you to reach locations faster or more safely. It would ultimately be a balancing act - is the reduced cost associated with reducing upkeep, time, or risk of transport worth the increased cost of hiring mages to cast and maintain the spells?
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:53 AM   #59
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

Zombies would certainly help with the cost of powered transport (galleys, treadmill paddle ships, rickshaws...) for anyone that doesn't mind the smell - and likely the speed and range as well.
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Old 11-25-2015, 09:07 AM   #60
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Default Re: Low-Tech Trading Rules

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Costs per ton-mile. For that matter, biomechanicists use a similar measure for animal migratory behavior, though the units are obviously different and the cost is in joules or kcal rather than dollars.
Given that the fundamental currency of a low-tech setting is food calories, and not any kind of valuable metal or paper, that's not a problem. In all cases, in a low-tech setting, when you need to have some kind of work performed, whether a scribe copying a book or an ox turning the axle of a mill, the primary question is whether you actually have a sufficient quantity of food to feed the person or creature who is to perform the work.
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