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Old 08-03-2015, 03:01 PM   #1
Themoopanator
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

Hi, just a question about damage types from 3rd edition here.


Crushing damage question: How does it work ??? I can't find anywhere in the 3rd edition basic set book that says ?

Impaling: Does it /ALWAYS/ double ? Like, say I shot someone without armour. His health is 10. I hit him with my bow in the chest for 5. It is then doubled, without any penalty due to DR which makes the damage 10. Which means he is preeetty much down in one hit ? Because this seems a little OP. Even though my PCs are likely not going to encounter many enemies without armor. Although it seems very realistic which is what I have seen GURPS is notorious for?

Am I doing it right ?
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Old 08-03-2015, 03:12 PM   #2
trooper6
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Medford, MA
Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

Crushing damage is normal. So if you do 5 points of crushing damage, it is just 5 points.
Cutting Damage does x1.5 damage after DR
and Impaling Damage does x2 damage after DR.

And yeah, getting shot in the chest with an arrow or a bullet if you have no DR is bad.

It isn't going to kill you. Remember, you need to lose twice your HT before you are in danger of dying...but making your HT roll even then means you aren't dead. It'll put you on the edge of passing out if you have average health...but it won't kill you.

So...the moral of the story? Have a higher HT, wear armor.
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Old 08-03-2015, 03:32 PM   #3
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

4th edition, at least, uses the words "damage" and "injury". I can't recall whether 3e uses those words, but it may be a useful bit of jargon to adopt to help remember the difference.

Damage is what you roll on the dice. Injury is the amount you subtract from HP. Subtract DR from damage, then multiply by the injury multiplier (1x, 1.5x, 2x) to get injury.

Hit locations, if you use that option, often change the injury multiplier.

And yes, you want to wear armor. Not wearing armor and relying just on your awesome Active Defenses would be someone qualifying for their Overconfident Disadvantage :)
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Old 08-03-2015, 03:55 PM   #4
Themoopanator
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

Hey, thanks guys. 1 more question? What are the advantages of crushing and cutting damage? Because it seems like impaling damage is the best by far.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:05 PM   #5
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themoopanator View Post
What are the advantages of crushing and cutting damage? Because it seems like impaling damage is the best by far.
If everything else were equal, perhaps -- but not everything else is equal. If you examine the weapons charts, you'll notice that most of the heavier-damage weapons do crush and cut. Also, swing is more damaging than thrust, and (with the notable exception of the pick) there's not a lot of swinging impaling damage. Impale is generally more often found on little pokey things which don't have as much basic damage. So, for penetrating armor, you'll often want those swinging weapons, especially for characters with higher ST.

Then there are side effects. If you actually want to sever things, cutting damage is what you need. Break out the maces instead of the rapiers for smashing.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:12 PM   #6
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themoopanator View Post
Hi, just a question about damage types from 3rd edition here.


Crushing damage question: How does it work ??? I can't find anywhere in the 3rd edition basic set book that says ?

Impaling: Does it /ALWAYS/ double ? Like, say I shot someone without armour. His health is 10. I hit him with my bow in the chest for 5. It is then doubled, without any penalty due to DR which makes the damage 10. Which means he is preeetty much down in one hit ? Because this seems a little OP.
OP? You consider an arrow to the chest something average people *should* be able to shrug off?

GURPS is actually somewhat more generous than reality about this sort of thing, in that it this almost certainly won't kill your character, where in the real world there's a good chance you would die from an arrow through your chest. But it does assume that a good hit with an actual weapon is something that can end a fight.

That's how weapons actually work, if one didn't disable or kill in one blow much of the time, nobody would use it in a fight - you want a foe to go down when you hit him, not to be slightly hurt but able to get in a return strike.
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Old 08-03-2015, 08:31 PM   #7
trooper6
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Medford, MA
Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themoopanator View Post
Hey, thanks guys. 1 more question? What are the advantages of crushing and cutting damage? Because it seems like impaling damage is the best by far.
1) Base Damage
As Anaraxes says crush and cut weapons often have higher base damage or are better able to take advantage of Strength to get more damage. This means that quite a few impaling weapons aren't going to get passed decent armor.

Let's look at a warrior with ST12
Basic Damage: swing -- 1d+2; thrust 1d-2
So what is the best we can do with this strength?

For crushing, if we don't want to take a turn to ready?
Quarterstaff. Does sw+2 cr (1d+4 or 2d) or th+2 cr (1d)
If we don't mind having to ready?
Mace or Morningstar sw+3 cr (1d+5 or 2d+1)...one turn to get ready.

For cutting, if we don't want to take a turn to ready?
Thrusting Greatsword, sw+3 cut (1d+5 or 2d+1) or thr+3 imp (1d+1)
If we don't mind having to ready?
Poleaxe, sw+4 cut or crush (1d+6 or 2d+2), two turns to get ready.

For impaling, if we don't want to take a turn to ready?
Probably a Spear, thr+2 imp one handed (1d+1) or thr+3 imp two handed (1d+2)
If you don't mind readying?
Warhammer, sw+3 imp (1d+5 pr 2d+1), takes a turn to ready and may get stuck. (all the of the swung impaling weapons might get stuck).

Quarterstaff does less damage than a Greatsword, but has a bonus to parry so is a good defensive weapon as well as offensive. The Greatsword does a lot of damage, but you can't use a shield
The spear is a good weapon, but it does quite a bit less damage than the Quarterstaff or the Greatsword.
Once you are getting into weapons that need to be readied...you are dealing with compromised defenses.


So on average, you are going to be able to do more damage more cheaply with a crushing weapon.

But it isn't just base damage.

There are some extra rules that nuance this a bit more.

B73 notes that cutting and impaling damage will always do at least 1pt of damage (before armor), but crushing can be reduce to 0. So if your damage is 1d-1 and you roll a 1, for cutting and impaling, that will still be a 1, for crushing that is a 0. (I know you are thinking, why would I want to do crushing at all! Wait for it).

B106 Knockback! For every 8 points of bullet, crushing, or cutting damage (not impaling) you inflict before armor, you knock the foe back one hex and they have to make a DX roll or fall down. This is more likely to happen with some of those big crushing attacks. This can't happen at all with impaling attacks. Having your foe on the ground is really good.

B109 Blow-Through. For attacks to the torso, Impaling and bullet damage is limited to HT. So if you do 12 impaling damage against the torso of an HT10 person...only 10 will count, the rest is lost. If you do 15 cutting or crushing damage to an HT10 person? All 15 will count.

There is the options advanced injury rule on B110 (which i always used). bullets and impaling weapons don't do bonus damage on arms, legs, hands, and feet...but can target the vitals for x3 damage rather than the x2.

Lastly, breaking a weapon B111. If you parry a weary that is more than x3 the weight of your weapon, it has the change of breaking. I lot of thrusting weapons (like rapiers, daggers, etc) are very light. A lot of crushing weapons (Maul) are quite heavy meaning that parrying them might result in a broken weapon.

Also crushing weapons are often a lot cheaper.

So...those are some of the things on weapons!
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Old 08-04-2015, 07:25 AM   #8
Gudiomen
 
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Default Re: [3rd edition] Impaling, cutting, crushing

I'm a little rusty on my 3rd Ed., and I'd hate to have to dig up my Basic.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think blunt trauma was already a thing in 3rd ed., although it might have been an optional rule from the Compendiums. So there's that going for crushing.

Like other said, with moderate amounts of ST, impaling weapons have a harder time getting through armor, so in a serious fight against someone in armor you'll often just get a few points of damage through the armor to do actual injury, whereas swinging weapons with higher basic damage will more often get through. There are ways around this, but require skill and point investments. Or inconvenience, like the case for a pick doing sw imp damage, but getting stuck.

Other reasons are the effects of specific body parts, like stunning or knock-down from a blow to the head or groin (I don't recall the specifics). Or specific vulnerabilities in fantasy settings, like skeletons being made of brittle bone and being extra vulnerable to crussing, or birds/bird-folk having hollw bones and ditto.

Now, besides all that, I do feel that crushing is the loosing proposition between the 3 in most life-or-death, kill-maim your opponent scenarios. However, the fact is that crushing damage exists and must be represented by the rules as faithfully as possible, the objective isn't just to balance them, but to represent something that's there, for your punches, your cheap-ass maces and improvised weapons... sure the professional warrior will prefer a sword, as most historically did if they had an option... it's light, versatile and does decent cut sw damage and the ability to do thr imp damage as well. But hey, sword are expensive to arm an army with.

And then there are the non-lethal uses, you might not want to kill-maim your oponents, a staff can be a walking tool as well as a self-defense weapon, with the intention to defend from blows, intimidate unnarmed thugs or fend off animals that are just as likely to run away when hit over the head a few times. Your character might also have a code against killing, and some fantasy settings have priests forbidden to draw blood with a blade...

I've played a spear-wielding warrior for a loong campaign and have sometimes found myself forced to use the shaft for crushing damage or attempting a Tip Slash (it's a 4th edition thing, where you swing with the spear tip doing reduced cutting damage). Sword wielding comrades would sometimes also use the flat of the blade to smack some sense into someone.

All damages have their uses, but yeah, nothing beats impaling damage to the brain to properly kill someone dead.
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