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Old 01-12-2015, 12:50 PM   #31
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
Players using the successive attacks get their First Attack at Full Basic Speed. If they have 1 Extra Attack, their second Attack is at 1/2 Basic Speed (round down). If they have 2 Extra Attacks, their 2nd Attack is at 2/3 Basic Speed and the 3rd at 1/3 Basic Speed. For the players, this is a one time notation on their character sheet when they buy Extra Attack.
An interesting variant. In this case, a decent approximation would be that a character with 1 Extra Attack gets a free identical attack after half the IP spent in the first is regained, one with 2 Extra Attacks gets the first after 1/3rd and the second after 2/3rd the IP has been regained, and so forth.

That is, with Init 15, Extra Attack 2, and a 60 IP attack the character would make their attack, then get the next two once 20 IP (2 Ticks) and 40 IP (3 Ticks) have been regained. That is, Attack-Pause-Attack-Attack

An easier alternative is to indeed just have Extra Attack cut IP in half, thirds, etc. Round up to avoid fractions. Optionally, have the reduction occur after you've worked out the full cost of the attack (so if the character above pumped 10 extra IP into the attack, for a total of 70 IP, Extra Attack 1 would reduce that to 35 IP, Extra Attack 2 would reduce it to 24 IP, and so forth. If he instead took a -2 to drop it to 50 IP, Extra Attack 1 would reduce this to 25 IP, Extra Attack 2 would reduce it to 17 IP, and so forth. Note this makes Extra Attack a bit more useful, of course.

...

Another problem the example showed me that I forgot in my last analysis was the issue of Waiting prior to combat. I'm thinking that, when characters are specifically prepared in such a manner, they should probably start at the higher of whatever they roll for Init or 90 IP (100 IP for those with ETS).

Yet another issue is characters starting with crazy high IP totals, like Sith in my example. Limiting characters to 100+Init for starting IP is likely appropriate.

...

I've got a (very) rough draft of the RoF rules. First off, to determine shots at each Tick (and delays between ticks), try to make things as even as possible amongst 5 Ticks, favoring earlier ticks over later. Have a chart:
Code:
RoF	Pattern

1	Fire	Pause	Pause	Pause	Pause

2	Fire	Pause	Fire	Pause	Pause

3	Fire	Fire	Pause	Fire	Pause

4	Fire	Fire	Fire	Fire	Pause

5	Fire	Fire	Fire	Fire	Fire
For higher RoF, use RoF 5 (10, 15, 20, etc) and overlay with the RoF that adds up to the actual RoF.. RoF 6, for example, would be Firex2-Fire-Fire-Fire-Fire (from combining Fire-Pause-Pause-Pause-Pause with Fire-Fire-Fire-Fire-Fire).

After firing, further attacks with the weapon suffer a penalty equal to Rcl. This improves by +1 (to a maximum of +0 net) for every Tick the weapon goes without firing. Firing during this "cooldown" simply resets the penalty to Rcl. Truly recoilless weapons, such as lasers, should be treated as Rcl 0 here.

Some weapons will fire multiple projectiles per "shot," such as a shotgun firing buckshot, or a rifle firing a three-round burst. For this, you'll need to work out how many projectiles the weapon fires in a Tick, using the above guidelines. In general, it's close enough to assume all rounds in a shot are fired within a Tick (the M16 has RoF around 13, meaning it can fire 2.6 rounds in a Tick - close enough to its 3-round burst; in fact, RoF 13, as seen later, works out to F3-F3-F2-F3-F2; the burst limiter functionally just replaces the F2's with P's).

For weapons that end up firing multiple projectiles in a single Tick (due to multiple projectile loads, burst fire, or just really high RoF), use the general GURPS RoF rules (bonus to hit for multiple projectiles, hit with one and an additional MoS/Rcl rounds, single Dodge, etc). Multiple projectile loads often have Rcl 1, but use the weapon's true Rcl for determining later penalties. Truly recoilless weapons, like lasers, should probably use Rcl 0 here - but if the bonus for high RoF made the difference between a hit and miss, use Rcl 1 instead.

So, let's look at three weapons. First is an RoF 3 shotgun firing buckshot (RoFx9), second is an RoF 13 assault rifle, third is an RoF 10 laser pistol. In all cases, the character has an effective skill of 16 to hit the target.

The shotgun has Rcl 4, although the buckshot is Rcl 1. RoF 3 is F-F-P-F-P. If the character opts to fire at full RoF, he'll fire 9 pellets the first Tick, for effective skill 18 - a roll of 10 will get him all 9 pellets hitting. He can do the same the next Tick, at -4 for Rcl, so skill 12 - a roll of 10 means 3 hits. The following Tick is a necessary pause, then he can fire again - at -4 for Rcl, +1 for an extra Tick, so skill 13. He has to pause again, but then he can fire at skill 13. Overall pattern at full RoF is 18-12-P-13-P-13-12-P-13-P-...

The rifle has Rcl 2. RoF 13 is F3-F3-F2-F3-F2. First Tick is RoF 3, skill 16. Second is RoF 3, skill 14 (-2 for Rcl). Third is RoF 2, skill 14, fourth is RoF 3, skill 14, fifth is RoF 2, skill 14. Overall pattern at full RoF is 16-14-14-14-...

The laser has Rcl 0. RoF 10 is 2 shots per Tick. The character can fire at RoF 4, skill 16, the first Tick - and every Tick thereafter, because Rcl 0 means no skill penalty.

Last edited by Varyon; 01-12-2015 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:00 PM   #32
Varyon
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
I think I've read through the whole thing again, but I can't grok how gaining 30 IP lets me attack again with a 60 IP weapon... unless we're assuming I have Weapon Master, and I'm spending the IP to cancel out the -3 I get to each attack for Rapid Strike? Or can I actually spend IP to drop the cost of attacks?
You get an extra 30 IP. How you spend it is up to you. You've just gone from having 100 IP to having 130. So, if making a 60 IP attack, you're dropping down to 70 IP. That's a net change of 30 IP.

EDIT: One thing I failed to note in the write-up, as I couldn't figure out a good way to word it, is that you cannot have more than 6 Ticks of "IP debt" at a time. If you use All Out to grab an extra 6 Ticks worth of IP (60 IP for Init 10) and use those as part of a 70 IP attack, when your turn comes up next Tick you've still got 5 Ticks of debt left; you can't pick up more than 1 Tick's worth of IP for this turn.
If you've got debt for both All Out and Committed, pay off the All Out first, then Committed.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Why don't HP factor into the equation anymore? Why, in fact, does it need to change at all? As you wrote it, it looks like the slammer needn't worry about falling down, nor about reciprocal damage aside, I suppose, from the Hurting Yourself rules for unarmed combat.
My Slam guidelines aren't meant to outright replace what currently exists, but rather to show how to merge current Slam rules with the Initiative Overhaul. So, damage is still calculated the same way, and is still reciprocal - as noted, it's collision damage, with all that entails. I had honestly forgotten the oddity of getting knocked down when doing a Slam, but just using the current rules for this will work alright.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
... M&A ...
My rules for Move and Attack are written to try and hew decently close to the current rules (the lack of a cap on thrusts is just a reinterpretation of Armed Slams). Any houserules for making Move and Attack more attractive are likely to be compatible with Initiative.

Last edited by Varyon; 01-12-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: Maneuvers

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If the character doesn't act and continues delaying over 50, 100, or 150 (or more) IP, treat the Delay as an Evaluate (for +1, +2, and +3, respectively). If the character instead declares an action (such as "If anyone enters this hex"), he may take any desired maneuver at normal cost in response to another character taking said action. Use Cascading Waits to resolve who acts first.
Does this mean I can Delay up to 150 or more IP, or am I capped at 100 IP and Evaluate is counting how many evaporate as I continue to Delay? If the former, what's the cap?
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Maneuvers

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Does this mean I can Delay up to 150 or more IP, or am I capped at 100 IP and Evaluate is counting how many evaporate as I continue to Delay? If the former, what's the cap?
As per Starting Combat, "if a character ends his action for the Tick with more than 90 IP remaining, reduce it to 90 IP." Note this increases to 100 IP if you have ETS. If a character with Init 12 and no ETS were to Delay for 13 Ticks (enough for +156 IP), he'd be at 90 IP and get a +3 for Evaluate.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I've got a (very) rough draft of the RoF rules...
Very cool. It maintains the irrelevance of Rcl to weapons with RoF 1, which is good. My only concern is that high RoF weapons are landing a lot more hits with moderate skill. For example, an assault rifle with RoF 10 and Rcl 2: before, if I'm rolling under 16 and I roll 10 every time, I hit with 5 shots (assuming the +2 for RoF). With this system, I hit with both shots every tick; actually, rolling against 14, I'd still be hitting with both shots every tick, even with the -2 from Rcl.

Again, it's really good for a rough draft. I'm just pointing it out for consideration. The real problem is that, in order to make hitting with subsequent bullets as hard as it is in core, the Rcl penalty needs to accumulate: but core recoil doesn't accumulate from turn to turn. The only thing I can think of is making the penalty accumulate from tick to tick, but only take one tick to dissipate completely.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As per Starting Combat, "if a character ends his action for the Tick with more than 90 IP remaining, reduce it to 90 IP." Note this increases to 100 IP if you have ETS. If a character with Init 12 and no ETS were to Delay for 13 Ticks (enough for +156 IP), he'd be at 90 IP and get a +3 for Evaluate.
Missed that. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
You get an extra 30 IP. How you spend it is up to you. You've just gone from having 100 IP to having 130. So, if making a 60 IP attack, you're dropping down to 70 IP. That's a net change of 30 IP.
Ah, I figured out why I was having trouble understanding. Rapid Strike lets me spend full IP to attack twice. Getting extra IP with All-Out lets me offset the cost of attacking, so I'm spending half IP to attack once.

Last edited by McAllister; 01-12-2015 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:59 PM   #36
Varyon
 
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Very cool. It maintains the irrelevance of Rcl to weapons with RoF 1, which is good.
Well, with Rcl 5 and higher, you actually have to wait more than a full second between shots if you want to avoid the penalty.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
My only concern is that high RoF weapons are landing a lot more hits with moderate skill.
There are a few things to keep in mind here. First off, skill 14 after modifiers is actually a pretty high skill with ranged weapons. More importantly, however, is that you're falling into the "roll average" trap here. With skill 14, it isn't "on average, I'll hit with every bullet." On the first shot, you have around a 74% chance of hitting twice, a 16.7% chance of hitting once, a 9% chance of missing outright - an overall average of around 1.65 hits. For the second shot, and all subsequent shots until you take a pause or run out of ammo, you have a 50% shot of hitting twice, a 24% shot of hitting once, and a 26% shot of missing outright - an overall average of around 1.24 hits. So, with a 1 second (5 Ticks) burst, you're looking at an average of 6.61 hits. Yes, this is more than the 5 hits predicted by RAW GURPS - but many people (myself included) are rather less than fond of how hard it is to hit the broadside of a barn with a full burst in RAW GURPS, so this is arguably an improvement.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
The real problem is that, in order to make hitting with subsequent bullets as hard as it is in core, the Rcl penalty needs to accumulate
I considered something of the sort, but it ends up ramping up difficulty far too rapidly. Something where once you are suffering from -Rcl or worse each additional Tick of firing gives another -1 might work. So, with RoF 3, Rcl 4, and Skill 16, that's 16-12-P-12-P-12-11-P-11-P-11-10-etc. The same weapon at RoF 5 would be 16-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-etc. I think even this would be too far, but I could be mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Getting extra IP with All-Out lets me offset the cost of attacking, so I'm spending half IP to attack once.
Precisely.

Last edited by Varyon; 01-12-2015 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 01-12-2015, 02:17 PM   #37
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Well, with Rcl 5 and higher, you actually have to wait more than a full second between shots if you want to avoid the penalty.
I'm not actually sure anything has Rcl 5+... I just checked, and it looks like it's limited to the artillery in High-Tech and Low-Tech. I'm fine with those guns waiting 1.2 seconds between shots, if they can even fire that fast. Now I'm thinking about how great it would be to dual-wield a pistol and a saber in order to take advantage of the pistol's IP-cheap attack once per second and the saber's efficient thrusts and parries... clearly, I need to go play an Age of Sail game now.

Quote:
There are a few things to keep in mind here. First off, skill 14 after modifiers is actually a pretty high skill with ranged weapons. More importantly, however, is that you're falling into the "roll average" trap here. With skill 14, it isn't "on average, I'll hit with every bullet." On the first shot, you have around a 74% chance of hitting twice, a 16.7% chance of hitting once, a 9% chance of missing outright - an overall average of around 1.65 hits. For the second shot, and all subsequent shots until you take a pause or run out of ammo, you have a 50% shot of hitting twice, a 24% shot of hitting once, and a 26% shot of missing outright - an overall average of around 1.24 hits. So, with a 1 second (5 Ticks) burst, you're looking at an average of 6.61 hits. Yes, this is more than the 5 hits predicted by RAW GURPS - but many people (myself included) are rather less than fond of how hard it is to hit the broadside of a barn with a full burst in RAW GURPS, so this is arguably an improvement.
You're right, I did fall into that trap. Thank you for demonstrating it with numbers, that disparity is lower than I'd imagined. I, too, am less than fond of how hard it is to hit with the back half of a long burst, but it's also important to be aware of departures from RAW, even if this is widely regarded as positive.
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Old 01-12-2015, 02:46 PM   #38
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
I'm not actually sure anything has Rcl 5+... I just checked, and it looks like it's limited to the artillery in High-Tech and Low-Tech.
The Ruger Super Redhawk (a revolver) has Rcl 5, the bulk of shotguns have Rcl 5+ (there are some 12G that have Rcl 4, and one with Rcl 3), and some big game rifles have Rcl 7 (there's also a literal anti-tank rifle with Rcl 6).

That said, I agree that having such weapons needing to wait a bit more than a full second between full-skill shots doesn't seem unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Now I'm thinking about how great it would be to dual-wield a pistol and a saber in order to take advantage of the pistol's IP-cheap attack once per second and the saber's efficient thrusts and parries... clearly, I need to go play an Age of Sail game now.
Indeed. Of course, you'd only be able to make use of that once per combat (or once per pistol, and you'd have to take time to draw a new one each time) in Age of Sail, due to the pistols being single-shot weapons.
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:15 AM   #39
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Default Re: GURPS Overhaul - Initiative, Revised

I've updated the first 3 posts with the revisions that I've made thus far. Some of the clarifications I'd like to have added I had to leave out to keep within the maximum number of characters, however, but they're all somewhere in the thread.
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