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Old 12-16-2013, 08:37 AM   #11
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
And for the "all skills" version, that's DX! (-70% can only be used to make deceptive attacks)* [10], which probably isn't unreasonable.
Even if you accept the concept of DX! as a real, legitimate thing that you should base costs off of, I'm not sure why -70% is a fair pricing for "Only can be used to make deceptive attacks." Deceptive Attack is extremely valuable, and in this case it's a core use of the skill - the whole point of attacking is that you don't want the guy to be able to defend. You're giving up a little flexibility but not very much. -70% is way too generous in my opinion. The price of the one designed with the Technique Design System is a lot more fair, IMO.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:06 AM   #12
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Even if you accept the concept of DX! as a real, legitimate thing that you should base costs off of, I'm not sure why -70% is a fair pricing for "Only can be used to make deceptive attacks." Deceptive Attack is extremely valuable, and in this case it's a core use of the skill - the whole point of attacking is that you don't want the guy to be able to defend. You're giving up a little flexibility but not very much. -70% is way too generous in my opinion. The price of the one designed with the Technique Design System is a lot more fair, IMO.
The Technique version probably is more fair, but the prices are so similar it would probably work out alright.

As for -70% (well, really more like -66.66666...%), you're missing out on the defense bonus and all the other DX-related skills. At lower skill levels, you're missing out on the ability to do a lot of Techniques (mostly Targeted Attacks, which will be very important in a VtM-style game), as these may well drop your hit chance too far. Of course, if the GM allows Enhanced Deceptive Attack to work with Telegraphic Attack, this last ceases to be any sort of limitation at all - you can trade in up to 2 levels of EDA for a +4 to skill. At higher skill levels, the penalties for doing various Techniques essentially amounts to a decreased ability to use DA, similarly making the last bit no longer a limitation.
-70% is likely too much for all this, but might not be too terribly far off. -60% or -50% would probably be more fair, but in terms of end price this actually isn't that big of a difference (-50% ends up with the same price as the Technique).
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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This works for me, although I'd set a pretty steep Prerequisite for it, because it's very cinematic.
It sure is!

Might make a good DF Martial Artist power up... Prereq of TBAM ro Weapon Master and Chi Talent 2 or some such. Shoe horn it in an article! It'll make me smile!
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:59 AM   #14
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

There already exists a version of this on DF11:34--the Botte Segrete. It costs 20 points and gives -5 to any defense against it, although at a cost of 1 FP (canonically a -5% limitation).
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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There already exists a version of this on DF11:34--the Botte Segrete.
Crane Technique. If do right, no can defend.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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There already exists a version of this on DF11:34--the Botte Segrete. It costs 20 points and gives -5 to any defense against it, although at a cost of 1 FP (canonically a -5% limitation).
5 levels of this would be 21points... I guess the fatigue cost beings it down a bit... The fatigue cost is pretty restrictive. I wouldn't take it.
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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5 levels of this would be 21points... I guess the fatigue cost beings it down a bit... The fatigue cost is pretty restrictive. I wouldn't take it.
If it wasn't for the 1 FP cost, it wouldn't be a cool option, it would be a requirement for all Swashbucklers and be to go-to move turn after turn. GURPS strongly denigrates perfect uber-moves. DF especially so, because you want people to have enough options to choose different types of a given template.
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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If it wasn't for the 1 FP cost, it wouldn't be a cool option, it would be a requirement for all Swashbucklers and be to go-to move turn after turn. GURPS strongly denigrates perfect uber-moves. DF especially so, because you want people to have enough options to choose different types of a given template.
Perhaps so, but there are plenty of techniques that, once improved, are naturally the go-to maneuver at every opportunity.

GURPS is a point build system, and jamming that fatigue in there makes it worth allot less than other options. Five levels of raw skill for 20 points is just a much better buy (in my opinion). Fatigue can be pretty tight with just the existing extra effort in combat options!
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

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Perhaps so, but there are plenty of techniques that, once improved, are naturally the go-to maneuver at every opportunity.
Not many that replace the basic attack. If Botte Segrete doesn't cost FP, I can't see using anything except that. Oh sure, any failure is a critical failure. In DF, that means a 17-18 is a critical failure instead of 17 being a regular failure and 18 being a critical failure. Plus you'll have Luck, at least, to avert that if it's a real worry. Otherwise, you should use it every turn. Even +5 skill won't be as effective as this is.

Even Weapon Masters sometimes do regular strikes instead of Rapid Strikes, because that -3 is needed for other things, even guys with Seven Secret Kicks will sometimes punch or grapple instead, guys with Double-Shot will sometimes shoot a single arrow or shoot at a single target. This would be just too useful if it didn't have a built-in cost. You'll notice the various new Martial Artist abilities in DF 11.1, er, Pyramid 3/61, all have something about them that makes them useful but yet not a replacement for just attacking someone straight-up in all circumstances.

Outside of DF, this is still true. Counterattack is great, but it is limited to guys attacking you and they aren't always the ones you want to kill off in a multi-foe fight. Exotic Hand Strike is pretty sweet, but it makes you a bit more vulnerable to injury and you don't always want that. Lethal Strike is nasty, but piercing isn't crushing and piercing doesn't help so much against certain targets. And so on. The upthread Techinique isn't unfairly costed, and may fit the OP's game, but it's not something you will see often in GURPS.

The ability upthread

The various Martial Artist poweups
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Enhanced Deceptive Attack

I get that... but if I spend 20 points on a combat technique, I'm going to want to use it without agonizing over FP expenditures in those long fights!

The limitation value of cost FP is just out of whack to start with anyway... costing one FP, switching an ability from something that is always on to something that you get to use 20 minutes at most, is far more than a 5% loss of effectiveness. Especially if you're facing someone with the same ability, but without that 5% limitation.

I'm sure that under the hood, the fatigue cost saved a single character point... but it practice it would far more than half the effectiveness of what you're paying for.
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