Mounted infantry, overruns, and ramming

[Ulzgoroth]

Per 5.11.3, infantry may not dismount from a vehicle the same turn as it embarks.

It's not specifically noted, but it seems to follow that that would include dismounting for an overrun per 8.06.1. Is this correct?

This led me to the question: what happens to infantry if their mount rams or is rammed?

Being rammed by a GEV is treated as an attack, so it would fall under the usual rules for attacking a vehicle with riders. But armor carrying infantry can also be rammed and instantly killed by Ogres, or suicidally ram Ogres. Infantry can also potentially ride on rule 13.07 superheavies or Ogres.

[GoatRider]

Depends on whether they're wearing their seatbelts.

Actually, I got nothing.

[Qthulhu]

I've got to wonder why you would climb into a vehicle when the driver intends to ram an Ogre?

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Qthulhu

I've got to wonder why you would climb into a vehicle when the driver intends to ram an Ogre?

That's a fair point. While Ogre lacks "morale" rules, it does mention at least one case where something is theoretically possible but nobody would do it except under extreme (read: scenario-specific) circumstances: infantry riding Ogres.

[Suboptimal00]

Originally Posted by Qthulhu

I've got to wonder why you would climb into a vehicle when the driver intends to ram an Ogre?

While that sounds like a terrible idea for an unarmed human, so is being on the map. Power-armored infantry, though, could potentially take a ride until very close and capitalize on the distraction of the Ogre's point defense.

[shadowjack]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Per 5.11.3, infantry may not dismount from a vehicle the same turn as it embarks.

It's not specifically noted, but it seems to follow that that would include dismounting for an overrun per 8.06.1. Is this correct?

Hmm.

As I see it, the point of the "no mounting and dismounting in the same turn" rule is to stop infantry from getting an instant six-hex strike distance via GEV catapult. It seems fair to apply this to overruns, too. So, I would say yes, the rule applies. If you want your infantry to be able to bail out properly, make sure you take a turn to form up before charging.

This led me to the question: what happens to infantry if their mount rams or is rammed?

8.05.3 says that rams in overrun have normal effects, and 6.07 says that infantry cannot be rammed. I would rule that riders jump clear at the last moment, and are not harmed by the collision with their mount; they are simply dismounted automatically, overriding rule 5.11.3. (I doubt this is unbalancing; who's going to base a strategy about wrecking their own armor units just to let their infantry dismount in overrun? Other than Launchpad McQuack, that is.) While passengers inside a truck are trapped, and are destroyed with the transporting vehicle; sucks to be ambushed.

[StormCrow42]

Originally Posted by shadowjack

As I see it, the point of the "no mounting and dismounting in the same turn" rule is to stop infantry from getting an instant six-hex strike distance via GEV catapult.

It was originally thought up (if I recall message board discussions right) as the way to prevent the "I unmount at the end of my turn and then mount up again" exploit that lets you never have mounted infantry on your opponent's turn when he can shoot at you.

But yes, I think the answer is that they continue to get attacked as if mounted. I'd say they're destroyed in a ram, if you take mounted infantry into an overrun with an Ogre, you deserve to have some of them squished.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Qthulhu

I've got to wonder why you would climb into a vehicle when the driver intends to ram an Ogre?

If you're initiating an overrun against an Ogre, you'll have to be lucky for the suicidal inclinations of your driver to matter!

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Per 5.11.3, infantry may not dismount from a vehicle the same turn as it embarks.

It's not specifically noted, but it seems to follow that that would include dismounting for an overrun per 8.06.1. Is this correct?

I believe this is correct. 8.06.1 just says that INF can dismount for an overrun; it does not override 5.11.3. A practical way to look at it is, if you are planning to carry INF into an overrun, you should really be planning it out properly. I have a feeling, however, that 8.06.1 was intended to be an exception to 5.11.3. Overruns are meant to be close-quarters mid-movement conflicts. It makes sense that INF would be able to ditch in a micro skirmish. It's also worth noting that 5.11.3's restriction on dismounting on the same turn is new. GEV rules as recent as 2000 did not include this, which means it was not necessary to reconcile before then.
A FAQ or errata is really needed for clarification.

This led me to the question: what happens to infantry if their mount rams or is rammed?

Being rammed by a GEV is treated as an attack, so it would fall under the usual rules for attacking a vehicle with riders. But armor carrying infantry can also be rammed and instantly killed by Ogres, or suicidally ram Ogres. Infantry can also potentially ride on rule 13.07 superheavies or Ogres.

This really goes back to my comment about INF expecting to dismount during an overrun. Assuming they can, there is little logical reason to stay mounted other than being able to continue riding afterward (assuming they survive, which is unlikely if they stay mounted). There should actually be an errata added to spell out how ramming is handled in Overruns, because the ramming rules in 6.00 are actually meant to be replaced by overrun rules, not used in conjunction with them:

Ramming takes place during the movement phase. Players should decide in advance whether they will use the (fast, simple) Ramming rules here, intended for games in which only one unit normally occupies each hex, or the (more realistic and complex) Overrun Combat rules described in Section 8. Do not use both!

That obviously is impossible, because the only place that discusses how to resolve rams (size charts, details, etc) is in 6.00
It's also notable that ramming units that have INF riding isn't covered in either case (or ever have, for that matter). :-(

I think logically, INF riding a unit that is ramming suffers the same fate as the unit. HVY with INF rams Ogre = HVY and INF are dead, etc.

[Qthulhu]

From my reading, in both situations it's hard luck for the infantry as the movement rules would take priority over the overrun rules.

You could justify basic self-preservation as an in-universe explanation for why your men could dismount despite mounting in the same turn, but you would still come back it being a way to fudge the rules to allow your troops to almost fly around the map.

If we assume that the in-universe reason they cannot dismount in the turn they mount is because they're securing themselves on the vehicle, then the in-universe explanation for why they cannot bail is because they've only just secured themselves when they notice the driver is ramming for the greater good. Too late to bail. SPLAT.