Wish List and Supers

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Refplace

That is true on both counts.
Action came out in 2008 and is much farther down the list.
Martial Arts shows a 2007 copyright so it came out the same year and sold less.
Space came out in 2006 and is also farther down the list,

Take Dungeon Fantasy instead of Action and you have a completely different picture - neither is really a good comparison with Supers. (DF is probably closer to Supers than Action)

Martial Arts and Space were both released as Hardbacks first, with the PDF release coming 3 or 4 months later - so it seems perfectly reasonable that their e23 sales are lower than books which were originally released only as PDFs.

Both of these relate to why I picked Psionic Powers for comparison.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Now a counterpoint is that Supers has not made the Top 50 when I searched from 2012 to now, though other "old" books like Magic have. On the other hand those older core books have new content that can drive sales.

There are of course others but I looked for what I think are popular.
In my ind that seems to justify another look then just discarding the genre because of poor sales on one Pyramid issue. Especially sine that issue was admitedly rushed and more importantly emphasized setting specific content which tends to do poorly.

As for Powers being in other books, your right and that certainly has taken the edge off. However there are different scales and lots of other Powers and additional crunch that can be written. Some of which could apply to other stuff as well (though likely with minimal application).

Edit:
Note that I am not saying major resources should be allotted or other projects shelved based on these numbers.
I am saying that the Wish list should include it and see what the type and quality of submissions are.
As of now the message is "Dont bother sending us anything in this genre"

I'm not saying we shouldn't have another Pyramid Supers issue, I take each issue as it comes - predicting what I might find interesting from the wish list title/description has proven to be pointless (for me) - I still anticipate an issue with a title/description that peaks my interest.

At the very least, there needs to be interest from authors to write and submit Supers related articles, which might encourage a Supers 2 issue on the wish list, which would encourage authors to write and submit articles.

Chicken and Egg - perhaps.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by SCAR

At the very least, there needs to be interest from authors to write and submit Supers related articles, which might encourage a Supers 2 issue on the wish list, which would encourage authors to write and submit articles.

Chicken and Egg - perhaps.

Perhaps but notinh on the Wish list means that a proposal is much less liekly to be accepted. Under the current conditions only well established GURPS authors are likely to get anything approved and there are other things on the list and hence more liekly to be worth thier time.

[bluetyson]

More superhero game writing is always of interest.

[Kromm]

Sales in this genre are historically bad for SJ Games. Adding up actual sales for all forms of all items that qualify by genre, and the subtracting off cost to produce, shows that supers barely breaks even. And in polls, it's never in the top half. Our last poll (sadly no longer online, or I'd link it!) revealed the following, and the accounting supports it:

1. Fantasy

(tiny gap)

2. Space science fiction.

(HUGE gap)

3. Introspective science fiction (cyberpunk, biopunk, and transhuman).

(HUGE gap)

4. Historical (swashbuckling pirates, the Old West, etc.).

(tiny gap)

5. Alternate histories.

(negligible gap)

6. Cinematic action (whether Hollywood or wuxia).

(tiny gap)

7. Horror.

(tiny gap)

8. Illuminated and conspiracy.

(negligible gap)

9. Post-apocalyptic.

(HUGE gap)

10. Time travel.

(negligible gap)

11. Supers.

(tiny gap)

12. Realistic action (real-life commandos, cops, and spies).

Given the error bars, it's best to see this as four tiers:

A List: Fantasy, Space SF
B List: Introspective SF
C List: Alternate Historical, Cinematic Action, Conspiracy, Historical, Horror, Post-Apocalyptic
D List: Realistic Action, Supers, Time Travel

And again, I'd like to emphasize that sales actually support this.

[bluetyson]

Yes, I woudn't think Supers would rate high on people's favourites in that genre these days, so makes sense.

[Phil Masters]

Frankly, I'm not too surprised that supers is so low on that list. The genre has never been seen as GURPS's forte. 4e handles it rather better than 3e, but the reputation was established long ago.

If people want a quasi-simulationist/somewhat gamist, points-build superhero system, they've had one for thirty years in Champions, and the d20 boom generated a decent alternative option or two. And in the modern RPG marketplace, it's wise to choose your fights carefully.

[Pragmatic]

I still have a few 3E Supers books on my "must buy" list. They'll at least make the transition to "scanned for e23," yes?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by bluetyson

Yes, I woudn't think Supers would rate high on people's favourites in that genre these days, so makes sense.

Actually, well-known Marvel and DC supers who have had successful movies made about them would rate very, very high indeed. ;) The catch is that this interest is not in "supers" as a genre, but in "Batman," "Iron Man," "Superman," "Thor," and so on. Nearly all of the would-be customers are interested in playing existing high-profile characters, not it creating their own; the few who are interested in inventing new heroes still want to do so in established universes. Unfortunately for GURPS, those characters and universes are jealously guarded intellectual properties . . . properties to which other publishers already have the exclusive RPG rights. Thus, a GURPS adaptation is not an option.

Indeed, the poll results I posted all come with the hidden assumption of gamers creating their own settings and characters. Just about any extremely popular fictional property would outrank the whole darn thing. The trouble is that such properties are expensive to pursue (everybody wants a cut) and costly to work with (if only because of the many layers of approval and revision), and for all that effort do not even leave us with something we truly own . . . once the license expires, we have to make like the product never existed, even if fans know it did and are dying for more support.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Frankly, I'm not too surprised that supers is so low on that list. The genre has never been seen as GURPS's forte. 4e handles it rather better than 3e, but the reputation was established long ago.

If people want a quasi-simulationist/somewhat gamist, points-build superhero system, they've had one for thirty years in Champions, and the d20 boom generated a decent alternative option or two. And in the modern RPG marketplace, it's wise to choose your fights carefully.

I honestly believe that the low status of supers as a GURPS genre has less to do with the system's flaws than with weak interest in that genre among players of RPGs. The "masks, capes, and code names" kind of supers have always been a niche interest for gamers – among the people I know, anyway. Long before I got into GURPS, we were sneering at the silliness of games like Superhero 2044, V&V, Champions, Golden Heroes, Superworld, Heroes Unlimited, and even first-edition Marvel Super Heroes. The only one we seriously tried to play was Champions, and it degenerated into "fight night" . . . there was no roleplaying, because the rules were so obviously designed for creating super-powered gladiators.

Games where your high-powered PCs are wuxia heroes, demigods, vampires, etc. are more popular. While such characters are certainly supers in all but name, they are inevitably associated with what RPG fans perceive as other "genres": fantasy, horror, martial arts, whatever. Relatively few people think of, say, Exalted or Vampire as a supers game.

And again, all of the above assumes "roll your own." There is no question in my mind that a high-profile IP completely changes the picture. In that case, the majority of sales are to people who do not much care about the rules. It would not matter to them whether the game engine were GURPS or something else again. Indeed, a good chunk of sales are to collectors of superhero spinoffs and memorabilia, who have no more intention of playing the game than of actually wearing Spider-Man underwear or drinking from a Superman sippy cup. I am afraid that I am too much of a hack to dismiss such customers . . . their money spends just as well.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I honestly believe that the low status of supers as a GURPS genre has less to do with the system's flaws than with weak interest in that genre among players of RPGs. The "masks, capes, and code names" kind of supers have always been a niche interest for gamers – among the people I know, anyway. Long before I got into GURPS, we were sneering at the silliness of games like Superhero 2044, V&V, Champions, Golden Heroes, Superworld, Heroes Unlimited, and even first-edition Marvel Super Heroes. The only one we seriously tried to play was Champions, and it degenerated into "fight night" . . . there was no roleplaying, because the rules were so obviously designed for creating super-powered gladiators.

I will stipulate that you're almost surely right about this, but it's quite contrary to my own experience.

* You're absolutely right about Champions—and that's precisely why I would never use it to run a full-on supers campaign. (I used it once for costumed adventurers in 1920s San Francisco, and once for teenage children of world-famous scientists.) When I started thinking about rpgs in terms of their root metaphors, it struck me immediately that Champions was about tactical combat between superpowered units—which isn't what I want to run.

* Various variants on the supers genre have been consistently popular with my players, right after fantasy and well ahead of traditional outer space. (I've done better with introspective science fiction, but that's because I have players who totally love Transhuman Space.) I do have players who are, or were, serious comics fans, but this also includes players who are more drawn by the films than by the comics/graphic novels.

* The campaigns I run in that genre certainly tend to be high-combat campaigns, but they also get a lot of character interaction.

On the other hand, the sales figures seem to indicate that your experience is closer to typical than mine is. It's too bad, because there are supers projects I'd like to work on.

Bill Stoddard