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Old 09-27-2013, 11:41 AM   #21
Kromm
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

What people keep missing is what I keep saying and what the rules say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by p. B92

The turn after you grapple a foe using TK, your TK can use a Move maneuver to pick him up off the ground, provided you have enough TK to lift his weight. Someone in this position can’t do anything that relies on ground contact (run, retreat, etc.), but can perform any other action that is possible while grappled.
Picking someone up does penalize his Dodge horribly – he suffers the usual -1 for being grappled and cannot use retreat for +3! Unless your GURPS games look very different from mine, that's lethally bad. Making it even worse is possible: Use TK for a takedown on the turn after you pick up your foe and, if you win, ascribe whatever special effects you like to the results; the game effect is that your victim is now lying down, and gets another -3 to Dodge for that. Alternatively, use the rules for shoving people around on that turn and, if you win, declare that you turn him away from you; now he can't defend against you at all!

The key point is that the initial, one-second grapple doesn't immediately make defenses worse than if you had grappled with hands. You have to take a turn for an Attack to grapple him, then a turn for a Move to lift him, and then another turn for an Attack to put him in a bad position. The huge benefit of TK is that you operate as an invisible attacker, so the initial defense against the grapple is likely to fail. A lesser benefit is that TK can be made very cheap with limitations, so you can easily have enough effective ST to ensure victory at takedowns and shoving around. Another lesser benefit is that you can stand 10 metres away and be at zero risk from having your hands parried by weapons, or having an angry, grappled foe attack you to get free.

Players who are expecting TK to turn each grapple into three turns of actions are asking too much from their points. If they want to do that, then they should invest in Altered Time Rate with suitable limitations for mental-only actions. If they just want instant restraint (one attack and the target is defenseless), then yes, they do indeed need to take Binding . . . which, as an alternative attack to Telekinesis, is stupidly cheap.

And to be clear, a GURPS dodge is any movement that pulls the attacked body part out of the line of attack. It may well involve nothing more than twisting the torso 10° or moving an arm 3 cm to the right. Full, bodily dodging with footwork is what retreat represents, and TK already prevents that.
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

You could probably use the same mechanics for turning the enemy around (thus denying him defenses) and not turn him around, but rather say you've bound him enough that he can't defend. The foe can then use the same mechanics as to turn back around, except fluff-wise this would be him struggling to regain some degree of movement (thus being able to defend again), rather than just turning back around. The mechanical difference is only in edge cases (enemy has 360-degree vision, or his attackers are in a circle such that he should always get a defense against some of them), so you could easily just consider this as a special effect (some RAW special effects - like disintegration from a fatal Heart Attack Affliction, or decapitation from a fatal cutting attack to the Neck - have similar edge-case caveats).
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
Compare:

Two fighters are standing on loose gravel, giving a penalty to dodge. One of the fighters is grabbed by the other, now he has the penalty from the loose gravel and the penalties from being grappled applying to his dodge.

-to-

Moments later that fighter is lifted into the air...losing the penalty from the loose gravel... o_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
What people keep missing is what I keep saying and what the rules say...
I'm not saying that the effects should be immediate or that it should totally prevent active defence, just that there should be more of a penalty once lifted then with normal grappling. Really, a "poor footing" penalty seems appropriate.
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Technical grappling does deal with some of this explicitly, with a move called a Pickup, as well as some advice on TK.
Pickup actually looks very weird with TK due to being HT-based. In fact, it looks extremely weird even with normal hands. I think it's the first case of having a HT-based offensive action roll in 4e, though I might be mistaken. HT rolls are normally reserved for being a target of a negative effect, while a brute-force offence would be done with ST, and a finesse-based one with DX.
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:43 PM   #25
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Does See Invisible work on Telekinesis?
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
I have read both Powers and Psionic Powers and thus, frankly, I do not see the point you want to make.

I think no one so far even mentioned Pyrokinesis, so, really, what are you going on about?

The problem is that the situation, namely being lifted above ground, does not match the players' expectation.
My point is that often a player's expectations of an advantage, in this case TK, is judged by the name of the advantage rather than the definition.

As you stated in an earlier post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Judging by fictional examples, lifting someone into the air (then often followed by colliding him into walls and similar) is usually portrayed as more or less having the subject helpless and in your power.
I do not think a pin-like result should occur without the usual rolls, but some kind of result should be obtained by spending the time to lift someone, aside from the fact that he can no be smashed repeatedly into the next wall.
And I agree with this. However, I also note that some fictional examples of TK include other abilities such as pyro- and cryo-kinesis. These may be grounds for a similar misunderstanding.

To mimic all but the simplest fictional abilities in GURPS usually requires more than one GURPS advantage.

In order to duplicate your example of having a lifted subject with TK helpless you need another ability, Binding, that would be bought along with the TK and somehow linked to it. The Psionic Powers book creates a framework in which almost any fictional powers can be made. Binding is specifically mentioned at the end of the Pychokinesis chapter.
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:20 PM   #27
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Pickup actually looks very weird with TK due to being HT-based. In fact, it looks extremely weird even with normal hands. I think it's the first case of having a HT-based offensive action roll in 4e, though I might be mistaken. HT rolls are normally reserved for being a target of a negative effect, while a brute-force offence would be done with ST, and a finesse-based one with DX.
I'm on record as being not-a-fan of ST rolls. I even worked out an alternate system (granted, not a lot of playtest in that one) that really did away with ST rolls again.

So, when it came to Pickups, I asked PK and Kromm if they'd mind if I used the same table we'd worked out for grappling encumbrance, where you had a multiple of BL be a modifier, and basically asked what I'd roll against. Well, you're straining to just lift him, and avoid injury. That's a HT roll. They agreed that in this case (a BOX on a very particular kind of move that really shouldn't come up much in combat) it was an OK approach.

You want a ST roll? Go right ahead. The basic rule for pickups is "you can't, unless your target is less than 4xBL." I thought that wasn't quite right, since I can and have picked up someone closer to 6xBL in a match.

Anyway, I thought treating the weight-to-BL ratio as a modifier to a HT roll was better than a ST roll. I got permission. The entire book is optional anyway, so there's always that!
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

FWIW, I officially endorse replacing all ST rolls with HT rolls for tasks that bring ST to bear, and using ST effects such as BL and damage to assess the results of success. ST has the annoying trait of being extrinsic where DX, IQ, and HT are intrinsic, and thus seems like a bizarre score to roll against – a bit like rolling against Basic Move, really. I do relent in situations where it's clearly ST vs. ST, but even there I have to wonder if comparing thrust damage or something wouldn't be more sensible. Interestingly, CP are found from thrust . . .
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
FWIW, I officially endorse replacing all ST rolls with HT rolls for tasks that bring ST to bear, and using ST effects such as BL and damage to assess the results of success. ST has the annoying trait of being extrinsic where DX, IQ, and HT are intrinsic, and thus seems like a bizarre score to roll against – a bit like rolling against Basic Move, really. I do relent in situations where it's clearly ST vs. ST, but even there I have to wonder if comparing thrust damage or something wouldn't be more sensible. Interestingly, CP are found from thrust . . .
And LO! There was endorsement. And we saw that it was good. :-)
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:46 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'm on record as being not-a-fan of ST rolls. I even worked out an alternate system (granted, not a lot of playtest in that one) that really did away with ST rolls again.

So, when it came to Pickups, I asked PK and Kromm if they'd mind if I used the same table we'd worked out for grappling encumbrance, where you had a multiple of BL be a modifier, and basically asked what I'd roll against. Well, you're straining to just lift him, and avoid injury. That's a HT roll. They agreed that in this case (a BOX on a very particular kind of move that really shouldn't come up much in combat) it was an OK approach.

You want a ST roll? Go right ahead. The basic rule for pickups is "you can't, unless your target is less than 4xBL." I thought that wasn't quite right, since I can and have picked up someone closer to 6xBL in a match.

Anyway, I thought treating the weight-to-BL ratio as a modifier to a HT roll was better than a ST roll. I got permission. The entire book is optional anyway, so there's always that!
For TK wouldn't IQ or maybe Will (plus talent if any) make more sense than HT?
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