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Old 07-03-2013, 08:52 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Recovering from Fatigue Caused by Missed Sleep

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
though that may carry its own FP cost, depending on the specific activity.
Anything that doesn't have at least an hourly FP cost probably isn't active enough.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Recovering from Fatigue Caused by Missed Sleep

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
So ... you'd go to sleep, wake up four hours early and be able to stay awake eight hours before suffering the effects of Staying Up Late.
(16 - (4 * 2) ) = 8
Agreed, this is RAW and I like it. So, continuing the above example, you don't say up eight hours, you only stay up four hours (the length of your watch) then go to sleep with four hours left in your "stay awake bank" and get four more hours of sleep. When you wake up, you'd be able to stay awake twelve hours before suffering the effects of Staying Up Late, (4 + (4 * 2) ) = 12. Agreed?

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
That [your house rule] produces decidedly non-human behaviors if applied as the human norm for a setting but that you've already stated that you are discarding realism in this case for the sake of playability. It looks playable.
"decidedly non-human behaviors": I don't like the sound of that.

I'm still not sure what the order of operations should be for my house rule when going to sleep with FP loss due to missed sleep.
  1. Add to your "stay awake bank" first, then recover FP due to missed sleep.
  2. Recover FP due to missed sleep first, then add to your "stay awake bank".
  3. Both happen concurrently.
Which of the above is more realistic? I believe the RAW is an extreme #1: you can only recover FP lost due to missed sleep by sleeping an uninterrupted 8+ hours. I find this overly harsh and it is part of the reason for my house rule.

Last edited by Captain Joy; 07-04-2013 at 01:28 PM. Reason: clarifying additions
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: Recovering from Fatigue Caused by Missed Sleep

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Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Which of the above is more realistic? I believe the RAW is an extreme #1: you can only recover FP lost due to missed sleep by sleeping an uninterrupted 8+ hours. I find this overly harsh and it is part of the reason for my house rule.
A quick nap when you have stayed up for days might give you a short burst of clarity but wont last long. Its more like a drug effect or something then the value of enough rest. To use Last Gasp rules I would count missed sleep as lost FP but a quick nap could give you back your AP.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Recovering from Fatigue Caused by Missed Sleep

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
A quick nap when you have stayed up for days might give you a short burst of clarity but wont last long. Its more like a drug effect or something then the value of enough rest.
Let's say I've lost 5 FP due to missed sleep, but can only afford to take a 3 hour nap at the moment. According to RAW, which is correct?
  1. I wake up with 6 hours in my "stay awake bank", but still down 5 FP for missed sleep.
  2. I wake up just as tired as before my nap and still down 5 FP for missed sleep. I.e. I gained no benefit because it wasn't 8 uninterrupted hours.
I'm thinking it's #1. I'm was wondering if maybe recovering the FP before you start adding to your "stay awake bank" is more realistic. Based on what you've said, I'm thinking it's more realistic to add to your "stay awake bank" first. You feel okay for a while, but then when you're "stay awake bank" runs out, you suddenly feel the full effects of all that sleep deprived FP loss.

(I don't have Last Gasp, but I'm thinking I should add it to my wishlist.)

Last edited by Captain Joy; 07-04-2013 at 01:27 PM. Reason: significant addition
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Recovering from Fatigue Caused by Missed Sleep

Since the OP started with house rules...

I've broken down "Fatigue" into two distinct elements: Fatigue Points (FP) which is short term spending of energy to achieve a task; and Fatigue Conditions which represent long-term fatigue and tiredness.

FP work more or less as they do now. You spend them for activities, and can regain them with quick little cat-naps or pauses. As a slight change, rather than making it an automatic recuperation of 1 FP every 10 minutes, I allow a HT roll every 5 minutes to regain 1 FP, so the average person regains them 1 per 10 minutes; i.e., I don't bother rolling and apply the RAW 1/10 minutes unless there's a dramatic reason not to. Simple math can give you average recuperation times for HT level other than 10 when you don't want to bother with rolls (e.g., a HT 12 person regains them at roughly 1 per 7 minutes)

I also use three sequential Fatigue Conditions: Weary, Drowsy, and Exhausted.

Weary: -1 to all attribute and attribute-based rolls (vs attributes, skills, Dodge, etc.) and Self-Control Rolls. (+10% enhancement as Affliction)

Drowsy: -2 to all attribute and attribute-based rolls (vs attributes, skills, Dodge, etc.) and Self-Control Rolls. Must make Will roll every 1/8 your "day period" (1/8 of 16 = 2 hours for average person) of light activity or less, with failure resulting in falling asleep for a sleep period (8 hours for average person). (+20% enhancement as Affliction; replaces current definition of Drowsy)

Exhausted: -4 to all attribute-based rolls (vs attributes, skills, Dodge, etc.) and Self-Control Rolls. Must make Will roll every 1/32 your day period (30 minutes average person) if perform light activity or less, or 1/8 day period (2 hours) for any heavier activity, with failure resulting in falling asleep for an entire sleep period (8 hours). (+40% enhancement as Affliction)

The above conditions are sequential - Weary to Drowsy to Exhausted - and are not cumulative.

You become Weary if your current FP ever reach 75% of your maximum, Drowsy if they ever reach 50% of your maximum, and Exhausted at -25% of your maximum (this replaces the normal 1/2 Move/Dodge/ST for 1/3 FP). Once you reach a given Fatigue Condition, regaining FP does not remove them! So it's better to rest frequently and not push yourself too far all in one shot, but you can if you need to.

There are other ways to also trigger a Fatigue Condition. In particular with respect to this thread, staying awake longer than your Day period automatically worsens your Fatigue Condition by one level; repeat for each consecutive day period of remaining awake. The average human will therefore worsen by one level after 16 hours (typically going from no condition to Weary), then another level after 32 hours (Weary to Drowsy), and then another level after 48 hours (Drowsy to Exhausted) of staying awake in row.

Taking a nap stops things from getting worse as it breaks the "staying awake" period, but I use the existing rules of if you get less than a full sleep period, it proportionately reduces your next day period (e.g., if you only got half the normal sleep period, then your next day period is only half as long), which means triggering the next level of Fatigue Condition will occur earlier than usual.

The Fatigue Condition increments are in addition to the existing FP loss for staying awake. You can mitigate the FP loss by resting while staying awake, but this counts as "no activity" and triggers the Will rolls not fall asleep accordingly.

Removing a Fatigue Condition requires a full sleep period (8 hours for average person) of actual sleep, and not just simple resting. If you get less than that amount of sleep, it has no effect on your condition and you start the clock over. Getting the full sleep period of sleep restores a level, so you go from Exhausted to Drowsy to Weary to no Fatigue Condition.


Anyway, those are my house rules on Fatigue. Similar to "The Last Gap", they take a stab at long-term fatigue by use of conditions, but it's much more generic for overall fatigue after long tasks/staying awake. You certainly won't get the more strategic and tiring effects in combat that "The Last Gap" give you... but it's less accounting to follow.

(I personally like The Last Gap, particularly for how it impacts the flow of combat, but my players really don't like resource management at that level of detail, so we don't use it and use what I presented above instead).

Last edited by Kallatari; 07-04-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Recovering from Fatigue Caused by Missed Sleep

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Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Let's say I've lost 5 FP due to missed sleep, but can only afford to take a 3 hour nap at the moment. According to RAW, which is correct?
  1. I wake up with 6 hours in my "stay awake bank", but still down 5 FP for missed sleep.
  2. I wake up just as tired as before my nap and still down 5 FP for missed sleep. I.e. I gained no benefit because it wasn't 8 uninterrupted hours.
I'd say (1), with the caveat that going to sleep again resets the "stay awake bank" rather than stacks with any hours remaining.

So you're sleep deprived. You take a three hour nap. You can now stay awake for six hours before the sleep deprived penalties kick back in. Four hours after your three hour nap, you take another three hour nap. You are back to six hours of awake time rather than the eight you'd have it the hours stacked.

Effectively, you hit a wall so many hours after your last sleep. That you went to sleep before you had to merely wastes the hours that you could have been awake.
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