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Old 01-14-2013, 06:57 AM   #91
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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I called it a narrow demand because there are many genres and styles of GMing that don't use it, but I called it deep because when we need it, we really need it. I also think it's a major gap and it stymies several of my campaigns. I'm really look forward to its release. I just don't think it's going to sell like crazy. Hope I'm wrong, though.
I guess I imagine there are more genres that would benefit from it than genres that wouldn't. But that is obviously extremely subjective, as well as strays into "which genre is popular" territory, which I'd hesitate to comment on!

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I'm curious as to what other rules systems have an equivalent Vehicles Book, or substantial rules for creating vehicles in any of their existing books?

From a cursory search, Vehicle books seem to be more of a 3rd party product, and mainly catalogues, rather than core design rules from the systems main publisher.
well I'd say it's a sub set of a subset (As I said earlier I don't think there are many system full stop that have vehicle design or use rules in any great detail).

Hero 6th comes to mind, maybe BRP
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:02 AM   #92
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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well I'd say it's a sub set of a subset (As I said earlier I don't think there are many system full stop that have vehicle design or use rules in any great detail).

Hero 6th comes to mind, maybe BRP
My point is, how can it be a valid criticism of GURPS (as opposed to RPG systems in general), if None of the rules systems have much in the way of vehicles support?
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:17 AM   #93
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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I guess I imagine there are more genres that would benefit from it than genres that wouldn't. But that is obviously extremely subjective, as well as strays into "which genre is popular" territory, which I'd hesitate to comment on!
It's more than just genre, it's whether the GM cares about vehicles.

GURPS DF and GURPS Mecha are pretty cut and dried. Vehicles have almost no place in the former, while vehicles are pretty front and center in the latter.

But what about GURPS Action? In some examples of GURPS Action, vehicles will play a central role. Who can imagine an example of the Italian Job or Fast Furious 5 without extremely detailed, highly specific rules and stats for the vehicles? The same is true of most military-oriented Action games featuring tanks and helicopters. But I can think of many Action games where vehicles amount to a way of getting from point A to point B. Shoot-em-up featured no vehicles that I could remember, for example, and Kill Bill had a single motorcycle.

Vehicles is ideal for a game where you have a gearhead in charge. It's a game where players care about horsepower and torque, or where they want each starfighter to be unique. But you can just as easily run these genres with "The spaceship just gets you there" (Mass Effect), or "The car goes, what more do you need?"

So it's more than genre. You and I would use vehicles for an endless number of genres. I'd probably even find a way to put detailed ships into a fantasy game. But I know quite a few people who just can't be bothered with the details of vehicles, even in genres that you would think would demand them.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:23 AM   #94
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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My point is, how can it be a valid criticism of GURPS (as opposed to RPG systems in general), if None of the rules systems have much in the way of vehicles support?
That's one way to look at it, I guess I take the view that a criticism (and that's a strong word, I'd prefer wish) that can be equally levelled at several generic systems doesn't excuse any one of them just because it's shared.

Or rather I tend to judge a system on it's own merits (and how it meets my needs) than compared to other system's merits & flaws. You jump your own hurdles, not anyone else's.

Also i'd argue that generic systems have more of need for such rules as by definition they have to provide a far a wider range of options. There are differing ways of doing this of course and the applicability of each is also dependent on the nature of the system in question. A detailed 'realistic' system will benefit more from a tool box creation system than a rules lite one would.

A system tied to a specific setting only really needs to provide vehicles found in that setting and rules for their use as it pertains to the setting. e.g Airship pirates has plenty on airships and what happens when you shoot them with the weapons commonly found in that setting, but doesn't need to worry too much about tanks and the details of the progression of C20th anti tank rounds (or the effect of such rounds on C22nd century airships).

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:24 AM   #95
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It's more than just genre, it's whether the GM cares about vehicles.

GURPS DF and GURPS Mecha are pretty cut and dried. Vehicles have almost no place in the former, while vehicles are pretty front and center in the latter.

But what about GURPS Action? In some examples of GURPS Action, vehicles will play a central role. Who can imagine an example of the Italian Job or Fast Furious 5 without extremely detailed, highly specific rules and stats for the vehicles? The same is true of most military-oriented Action games featuring tanks and helicopters. But I can think of many Action games where vehicles amount to a way of getting from point A to point B. Shoot-em-up featured no vehicles that I could remember, for example, and Kill Bill had a single motorcycle.

Vehicles is ideal for a game where you have a gearhead in charge. It's a game where players care about horsepower and torque, or where they want each starfighter to be unique. But you can just as easily run these genres with "The spaceship just gets you there" (Mass Effect), or "The car goes, what more do you need?"

So it's more than genre. You and I would use vehicles for an endless number of genres. I'd probably even find a way to put detailed ships into a fantasy game. But I know quite a few people who just can't be bothered with the details of vehicles, even in genres that you would think would demand them.
Absolutely. The same could be said about every GURPSs release beyond Characters & Campaigns though.

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:35 AM   #96
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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That's one way to look at it, I guess I take the view that a criticism (and that's a strong word, I'd prefer wish) that can be equally levelled at several generic systems doesn't excuse any one of them just because it's shared.

Or rather I tend to judge a system on it's own merits (and how it meets my needs) than compared other system's merits & flaws.

Also i'd argue that generic systems have more of need for such rules as by definition they have to provide a far a wider range of options. There are differing ways of doing this of course and the applicability of each is also dependent on the nature of the system in question. A detailed 'realistic' system will benefit more from a tool box creation system than a rules lite one would.

A system tied to a specific setting only really needs to provide vehicles found in that setting and rules for their use as it pertains to the setting. e.g Airship pirates has plenty on airships and what happens when you shoot them with the weapons commonly found in that setting, but doesn't need to worry too much about tanks and the details of the progression of C20th anti tank rounds (or the effect of such rounds on C22nd century airships).
I'm not really being argumentative, I was responding to your comment
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You might well be right, as it stands at the moment I think vehicles is a gap in the system, and one that crosses several genres. So one that is quite important for a generic system (its certainly a criticism of GURPS I hear quite often).
It bugs me when this sort of 'criticism' comment is made without any reasonable justification.

It's kind of amusing that an often quoted criticism of GURPS 3e was that it was too complex, requiring 'advanced maths' (or something similar), which is often attributed to the 'maths' in the 3e GURPS Vehicles. (Damned if they do, and damned if they don't!)

From a gaming perspective, I don't really need or particularly want complex vehicle design rules; as a maths junkie, I'll probably buy it, play with it, build spreadsheets and programs, just for fun!
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:43 AM   #97
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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I'm curious as to what other rules systems have an equivalent Vehicles Book, or substantial rules for creating vehicles in any of their existing books?

From a cursory search, Vehicle books seem to be more of a 3rd party product, and mainly catalogues, rather than core design rules from the systems main publisher.
Traveler had Striker.
Otherwise its mostly Space and Battle Mech type games.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:49 AM   #98
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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But what about GURPS Action? In some examples of GURPS Action, vehicles will play a central role. Who can imagine an example of the Italian Job or Fast Furious 5 without extremely detailed, highly specific rules and stats for the vehicles? The same is true of most military-oriented Action games featuring tanks and helicopters. But I can think of many Action games where vehicles amount to a way of getting from point A to point B. Shoot-em-up featured no vehicles that I could remember, for example, and Kill Bill had a single motorcycle.
Even the Italian Job, in game form, is going to be handled with lots of handwaving, movie-physics, and cinematics. It's not a gritty manual on the importance of proper gearshifting or tire maintenance. (And more so for any of the F&F movies.) Those movies may have a "car fetish," much like how John Woo films have a "gun fetish." And John Woo films don't need a Weapon Design System.

Action can get away with something much simpler: a variety of stats to put a +1 in, from Fine and Very Fine; some A-Team-style "weld on some makeshift armor" rules; Equipment Bond; stuff like that.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:50 AM   #99
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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well I'd say it's a sub set of a subset (As I said earlier I don't think there are many system full stop that have vehicle design or use rules in any great detail).

Hero 6th comes to mind, maybe BRP
Hero System has a simulatative vehicle design system? And BRP does too?
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:51 AM   #100
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Default Re: GURPS Releases seem to be slow?

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Absolutely. The same could be said about every GURPSs release beyond Characters & Campaigns though.
True, though by and large there are things people care more about than others. Spells and powers are a fixture to many genres and unlikely to get a handwaved response from the GM. The same is true of guns, blades and armor. Martial Arts is a little more niche, as is biotech (which, I'd bet, didn't sell like crazy).
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