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Old 01-01-2013, 11:27 AM   #1
1b2a
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

Let's say you kill a monster worth 4 treasures as a cleric, with help, and hoard being the 2nd card in the discard pile.

Cleric draws the first card in the discard, 2nd card in the discard, draws 3 more face up and daisy chains by using the cleric ability and hoard to get a potential 3x3+1 treasures for the first in discard and getting hoard a bunch of times. What is it that makes this illegal?
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

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Originally Posted by 1b2a View Post
Let's say you kill a monster worth 4 treasures as a cleric, with help, and hoard being the 2nd card in the discard pile.

Cleric draws the first card in the discard, 2nd card in the discard, draws 3 more face up and daisy chains by using the cleric ability and hoard to get a potential 3x3+1 treasures for the first in discard and getting hoard a bunch of times. What is it that makes this illegal?
The order you described is wrong. The Cleric would collect all the Treasures from the combat first. Lets assume he Ressurected the 1st and 2nd (Hoard) and drawed the remaining two from the Treasure deck, face up. He had to discard two cards from his hand in order to do this.
Then there would be the division of Treasure, as per the original agreement with the helper. Only then Hoard would be activated.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

Short Answer: Hoard! isn't discarded until after the complete, original Treasure draw occurs (see the quoted FAQ entry below).

Long Answer: While you are correct that Hoard! cannot be chained, you're wrong on when it activates, bonetm. It does activate as soon as it is drawn, absolutely immediately, and anything drawn by it becomes part of the Treasure set before distribution.

The correct timing description is as follows. Let's continue with the example that the monster had 4 Treasures and Hoard! was the second card in the pile.
  1. The Cleric needs to draw 4 face-Up Treasures and decides how many Treasures he wishes to Resurrect. Let's say 2.
  2. The Cleric discards 2 cards, not to the discard pile, but to a separate pile on the table, for now.
  3. The Cleric draws 2 cards from the Treasure discard pile and 2 from the Treasure deck and adds them to the Treasure set for distribution. Hoard! was one of those drawn from the discards.
  4. The Cleric must play Hoard! immediately, and adds Hoard! to the cards he discarded in step 2.
  5. The Cleric needs to draw 3 face-Up Treasures to resolve Hoard! and decides how many Treasures he wishes to Resurrect. Let's say 1.
  6. The Cleric discards 1 more card to the pile of current discards.
  7. The Cleric draws 1 card from the Treasure discard pile and 2 cards from the Treasure deck and adds them to the Treasure set.
  8. The 6 Treasures in the Treasure set are now distributed as per the agreement made with the Helper.
  9. The set of discards, which now totals 4 cards, including Hoard!, is now discarded by the Cleric in the order he chooses (as it is his turn).

Note that Hoard! is not discarded until after all the other effects occur. It is impossible to chain it twice in the same Treasure draw. This is also covered by an FAQ entry:
Quote:
Q. Can a cleric use Hoard over and over by discarding it before he starts drawing his three cards, and drawing it again, and discarding it and drawing three more, and so on?
A. No. Discard Hoard AFTER the three cards are drawn. GREAT try, though!
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Last edited by Clipper; 01-01-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:49 PM   #4
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

Just to be absolutely accurate: all cards drawn as part of a Treasure draw are considered to be drawn simultaneously, even if some are being resurrected and others drawn from the deck. If you're drawing five Treasures and Hoard! is the first card you pull up, draw the other four Treasures and THEN deal with Hoard!'s effects.

And yes, as the FAQ says, you don't discard Hoard! until after you draw the three Treasures it gives you.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

Thanks very much for the clarification Andrew. I've edited the step-by-step to reflect what you stated. That does make more sense and resolves a few other issues with timing involved with this card's interaction with others.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

That's one reason I discourage "I'll take the first Treasure drawn" deals where Clerics are involved. If I'm a Cleric and I decide to use Resurrection to take the top discard, is that the first or fourth Treasure I've drawn?
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

Thanks all!
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

Hoard! is one reason my table tends to agree to combat rewards as a portion of the cards, rather than agreeing to a specific number. The Vaults of Omigoshgolli is another.

"Half the treasure" and "2 treasures" sound like the same when the monster is worth 4 treasures; but if The Vaults of Omigoshgolli gets played after combat, and Hoard! is one of the treasure cards drawn, the monster ended up yielding 10 treasure cards.
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Old 06-22-2013, 03:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

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Originally Posted by Enzzo View Post
Hoard! is one reason my table tends to agree to combat rewards as a portion of the cards, rather than agreeing to a specific number. The Vaults of Omigoshgolli is another.

"Half the treasure" and "2 treasures" sound like the same when the monster is worth 4 treasures; but if The Vaults of Omigoshgolli gets played after combat, and Hoard! is one of the treasure cards drawn, the monster ended up yielding 10 treasure cards.
Normally at our/my table, people say, when they help and agrees on their reward for helping, would be like "Two treasures, my pick" or if they get outbid on their offer, they could say like "one treasure, your pick" So the one helping gets the last treasure there is left.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining

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Originally Posted by Clipper View Post
Long Answer: While you are correct that Hoard! cannot be chained, you're wrong on when it activates, bonetm. It does activate as soon as it is drawn, absolutely immediately, and anything drawn by it becomes part of the Treasure set before distribution.
What about this FAQ entry?

Code:
Q. What if I have to choose between cards and one of those is Hoard?
A. If a card makes you draw and choose between cards, and Hoard is one of those you have to choose between, you do not play Hoard until you choose it as the card to keep. Then it is played immediately.
Doesn't it state that Hoard! is to be played only after one of the winners chooses it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clipper View Post
  1. The Cleric needs to draw 4 face-Up Treasures and decides how many Treasures he wishes to Resurrect. Let's say 2.
  2. The Cleric discards 2 cards, not to the discard pile, but to a separate pile on the table, for now.
  3. The Cleric draws 2 cards from the Treasure discard pile and 2 from the Treasure deck and adds them to the Treasure set for distribution. Hoard! was one of those drawn from the discards.
As it is written in the Cleric card text, Cleric should first draw a card, then discard a card from the hand. Where is it stated that there should be a "separate pile"?
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