How much DR for monsters in a modern game?

Valadrim · 07-18-2012, 05:22 PM

How much DR is too much? I foresee players either giving up or having their characters spend all of their efforts acquiring heavy military hardware (RPGs, LAW rockets, light cannon) or elephant guns.

In your experience is the a rough line for too much DR for particularly tough monsters in a modern game that does not presume the characters have access to magic or LC1 weapons?

I know I can use other tools like Injury Tolerance or extra HP, but I want to use DR as well and I am not sure where the line between really tough but still fun, and pointlessly hard is.

sir_pudding · 07-18-2012, 05:31 PM

It's genre dependent. Monsters in a game based on Monster Squad should have little to no DR. Monsters in a survival horror game might be completely immune to PC weapons. Monsters in a GURPS Monster Hunters need to pose a threat to hypercompetent PCs with Gunslinger, Weapon Master, and superhuman abilities but still be killlable. What's the genre?

Sunrunners_Fire · 07-18-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valadrim

How much DR is too much? I foresee players either giving up or having their characters spend all of their efforts acquiring heavy military hardware (RPGs, LAW rockets, light cannon) or elephant guns.

In your experience is the a rough line for too much DR for particularly tough monsters in a modern game that does not presume the characters have access to magic or LC1 weapons?

I know I can use other tools like Injury Tolerance or extra HP, but I want to use DR as well and I am not sure where the line between really tough but still fun, and pointlessly hard is.

Take the damage dice of the weapon you want the PCs to use.

Light armor is 1 DR per dice.
Medium armor is 2 DR per dice.
Heavy armor is 3 DR per dice.
-proof armor is 3.5 DR per dice.
Impenetrable armor is 6 DR per dice.

So if you want them to be using a weapon with 2d damage, then light = 2, medium = 4, heavy = 6, -proof = 7, impenetrable = 12.

johndallman · 07-18-2012, 05:33 PM

At DR10 or so, there aren't many concealable weapons that can hurt you a lot. Ordinary pistols aren't doing much, small hand weapons aren't much good, and while armour-piercing ammo will punch through, it does less wounding.

At DR20, 5.56mm rifles will only hurt you on high rolls; 7.62 does a bit of damage on an average roll, and something heavier becomes very desirable.

At DR30, heavy weapons become a necessity.

Wildcat · 07-18-2012, 05:34 PM

It depends on what classes of weapons you want to stop. 7 or 8 DR is enough to make small-caliber pistols mostly ineffective, but leaves rifles able to do a good bit. 15 DR will take a lot of punch out of even the best rifles -- looking on B278-279, 15 DR would leave an average 5.56mm assault rifle dealing 2.5 damage after DR, 9.5 for a 7.62mm battle rifle, and 17.5 for a .338 sniper rifle.

vierasmarius · 07-18-2012, 05:50 PM

One conceit of modern-day monster stories (especially Vampires and Werewolves) is that they're largely resistant to firearms, but archaic weapons are more effective. IT: Unliving or Homogenous is a good way to achieve this, diminishing bullet damage but not impacting blades and bludgeons. If you throw on DR 10 they'll be able to ignore most pistols, but they'll also be immune to most muscle-powered weapons - and rightly so, since it's extremely difficult for any human to match the armor penetration of even a light firearm. With even that modest DR, there's no choice but to break out the rifles, and giving them enough DR to ignore rifles just forces the PCs to get bigger guns. Really, to enhance the feel of most modern monster-hunter adventures, Injury Tolerance is the way to go.

Miles · 07-18-2012, 06:37 PM

Now see, that's a genre assumption. Some people look at Unliving and Homogenous Monsters and say "Well, my gun's no good, obviously I need to pull out my sword/axe."

The smart folk say "Hey, grenades do crushing damage."

Yes, I'm aware that there are good reasons not to use explosives in a MH game.

Ulzgoroth · 07-18-2012, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miles

The smart folk say "Hey, grenades do crushing damage."

Crushing damage and cutting shrapnel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miles

Yes, I'm aware that there are good reasons not to use explosives in a MH game.

Alongside the reasons not to want to use them, there's the obvious bit that anybody can get a hatchet, knife, or even sword. Or, in the US, a wide variety of firearms. Whereas getting even a single hand grenade...

ericthered · 07-18-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

One conceit of modern-day monster stories (especially Vampires and Werewolves) is that they're largely resistant to firearms, but archaic weapons are more effective. IT: Unliving or Homogenous is a good way to achieve this, diminishing bullet damage but not impacting blades and bludgeons. If you throw on DR 10 they'll be able to ignore most pistols, but they'll also be immune to most muscle-powered weapons - and rightly so, since it's extremely difficult for any human to match the armor penetration of even a light firearm. With even that modest DR, there's no choice but to break out the rifles, and giving them enough DR to ignore rifles just forces the PCs to get bigger guns. Really, to enhance the feel of most modern monster-hunter adventures, Injury Tolerance is the way to go.

With 1 or 2 DR stacked on top to prevent death by a thousand cuts from a SMG

vierasmarius · 07-18-2012, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered

With 1 or 2 DR stacked on top to prevent death by a thousand cuts from a SMG

That wouldn't do a huge amount to help, since piercing attacks that penetrate the DR would still do a minimum of 1 injury each. And 2 DR isn't going to stop any gunshots except maybe Hollowpoint .22 LR (1d+1(0.5) pi).

Hmm... maybe there could be an optional rule (either universal, or as an enhancement to injury tolerance) that multiple attacks in the same burst are added together for the purpose of determining minimum damage. For example, if a Homogenous beastie gets peppered with a half-dozen small piercing rounds from a P90 dealing an average of 2 penetrating damage after DR, instead of dividing each bullet by 10 before adding them together (0.2 each, rounded up to 1 for total injury 6) you'd first add them up, then multiply by the wound modifier (1.2 injury, rounded up to 2).

07-18-2012, 05:22 PM	#1
Valadrim Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bremerton, WA	How much DR for monsters in a modern game? How much DR is too much? I foresee players either giving up or having their characters spend all of their efforts acquiring heavy military hardware (RPGs, LAW rockets, light cannon) or elephant guns. In your experience is the a rough line for too much DR for particularly tough monsters in a modern game that does not presume the characters have access to magic or LC1 weapons? I know I can use other tools like Injury Tolerance or extra HP, but I want to use DR as well and I am not sure where the line between really tough but still fun, and pointlessly hard is.

07-18-2012, 05:31 PM	#2
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: How DR for monsters in a modern game? It's genre dependent. Monsters in a game based on Monster Squad should have little to no DR. Monsters in a survival horror game might be completely immune to PC weapons. Monsters in a GURPS Monster Hunters need to pose a threat to hypercompetent PCs with Gunslinger, Weapon Master, and superhuman abilities but still be killlable. What's the genre?

07-18-2012, 05:33 PM	#4
johndallman Night Watchman Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cambridge, UK	Re: How DR for monsters in a modern game? At DR10 or so, there aren't many concealable weapons that can hurt you a lot. Ordinary pistols aren't doing much, small hand weapons aren't much good, and while armour-piercing ammo will punch through, it does less wounding. At DR20, 5.56mm rifles will only hurt you on high rolls; 7.62 does a bit of damage on an average roll, and something heavier becomes very desirable. At DR30, heavy weapons become a necessity.

07-18-2012, 05:34 PM	#5
Wildcat Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Kansas	Re: How DR for monsters in a modern game? It depends on what classes of weapons you want to stop. 7 or 8 DR is enough to make small-caliber pistols mostly ineffective, but leaves rifles able to do a good bit. 15 DR will take a lot of punch out of even the best rifles -- looking on B278-279, 15 DR would leave an average 5.56mm assault rifle dealing 2.5 damage after DR, 9.5 for a 7.62mm battle rifle, and 17.5 for a .338 sniper rifle.

07-18-2012, 05:50 PM	#6
vierasmarius Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oregon	Re: How DR for monsters in a modern game? One conceit of modern-day monster stories (especially Vampires and Werewolves) is that they're largely resistant to firearms, but archaic weapons are more effective. IT: Unliving or Homogenous is a good way to achieve this, diminishing bullet damage but not impacting blades and bludgeons. If you throw on DR 10 they'll be able to ignore most pistols, but they'll also be immune to most muscle-powered weapons - and rightly so, since it's extremely difficult for any human to match the armor penetration of even a light firearm. With even that modest DR, there's no choice but to break out the rifles, and giving them enough DR to ignore rifles just forces the PCs to get bigger guns. Really, to enhance the feel of most modern monster-hunter adventures, Injury Tolerance is the way to go.

07-18-2012, 06:37 PM	#7
Miles Join Date: Oct 2009	Re: How DR for monsters in a modern game? Now see, that's a genre assumption. Some people look at Unliving and Homogenous Monsters and say "Well, my gun's no good, obviously I need to pull out my sword/axe." The smart folk say "Hey, grenades do crushing damage." Yes, I'm aware that there are good reasons not to use explosives in a MH game.