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Old 07-08-2012, 04:09 PM   #41
Gef
 
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Default Re: Zhentish Rapier Fencing

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
The Signature Perk is another house rule that I'm still on the fence about ... I like Weapon Adaptation better than the original Two as One perk I was using (for this style as well as for Hand-and-a-Half), and so that's basically what Two in One is now -- renamed Weapon Adaptation -- but it seems arbitrarily closer to RAW to treat it as a Style Perk, and to require at least one point in each skill that's being folded together.
Weapon Adaptation, under rules as written, doesn't require two skills, but it does require a style perk, which means 2000 hours of training. Does a Zhentish fencer start with one weapon and begiin learning the second only when quite proficient, or does he start out learning with a wooden weapon in head hand? Only in the latter case would a Signature Perk be necessary. No, it's not RAW, but I got the idea from the editor:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=10

BTW, the thread also has some styles nominated for Forgotten Realms by Icelander.

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Old 07-08-2012, 04:48 PM   #42
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Default Re: Zhentish Rapier Fencing

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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Weapon Adaptation, under rules as written, doesn't require two skills, but it does require a style perk, which means 2000 hours of training. Does a Zhentish fencer start with one weapon and begiin learning the second only when quite proficient, or does he start out learning with a wooden weapon in head hand? Only in the latter case would a Signature Perk be necessary. No, it's not RAW, but I got the idea from the editor:
Students learn both as Style Skills -- at first, a somewhat difficult endeavor, requiring a lot of initial training to get familiar with each weapon, and then accustomed to coordinating two weapons of different lengths and weights. Once they have those basics down, they begin learning intuitively how to adapt the style's moves to either weapon.

That's the flavor text, anyway ... practically speaking, a PC buying the style will likely just spend 8+ points (designated for melee skills in most DF templates) on Rapier, 1 each on Holdout, Main-Gauche, and Style Familiarity to buy the style (maybe more on Holdout), so that he can buy Two as One as a Style Perk. Thinking about it, though, I'd allow Off-Hand Weapon Training (Main-Gauche) without counting it as a Style Perk. In fact, I guess I'd have to do that in order for Two as One to be available as a character's first Style Perk.

It's not really that I don't like the idea of Signature Perks (and I'll confess to being a little less on the fence about it now, seeing that the Mighty Kromm Hath Spoken... :\ ), it's that using Weapon Adaptation to completely replace a Style Skill just felt ... I don't know ... dirty somehow. (Yes, I'm weird.)

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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=10

BTW, the thread also has some styles nominated for Forgotten Realms by Icelander.
Cool, thanks for the link, I'll definitely check out Icelander's work.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #43
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Default Re: Zhentish Rapier Fencing

>I'd allow Off-Hand Weapon Training (Main-Gauche) without counting it as a Style Perk. In fact, I guess I'd have to do that in order for Two as One to be available as a character's first Style Perk.

Why? You don't need Off-Hand Training to PARRY with a main gauche in the off-hand, only to attack.


>using Weapon Adaptation to completely replace a Style Skill just felt ... I don't know ... dirty somehow.

Well, it should, if that's what you were doing. However, as I proposed it, you add ONE weapon to the repertoire of Main-Gauche skill, the rapier. You can't use a jiann or sword-rapier without adding a separate perk (for which you'd need another 10 or 20 points in style skills), and you don't get a default to broadsword, and therefore you can't get Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword with Main-Gauche skill).

Go the other way, with Rapier as the main skill, and allow Weapon Adaptation to use a main-gauche with it. Well then, your skill won't apply with a stiletto or other knives, and you get no default to Jitte/Sai skill (read as swordbreaker), and you don't get the advantage of an unpenalized parry with a main-gauche in the off-hand.

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Old 07-08-2012, 09:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: Zhentish Rapier Fencing

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Cool, thanks for the link, I'll definitely check out Icelander's work.
I think he's posted FR styles in multiple places; you'll probably want to do an advanced search for his posts with "Forgotten Realms" and "style" as keywords.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:54 AM   #45
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Default Re: Zhentish Rapier Fencing

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Why? You don't need Off-Hand Training to PARRY with a main gauche in the off-hand, only to attack.
Using the Main-Gauche offensively is an important part of the style. I'd even allow an Unusual Training perk for a non-Weapon Master to buy Dual-Weapon Fighting (though in DF, most advanced practitioners will probably be Weapon Masters anyway).


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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Well, it should, if that's what you were doing. However, as I proposed it, you add ONE weapon to the repertoire of Main-Gauche skill, the rapier. You can't use a jiann or sword-rapier without adding a separate perk (for which you'd need another 10 or 20 points in style skills), and you don't get a default to broadsword, and therefore you can't get Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword with Main-Gauche skill).
The Main-Gauche skill specifically doesn't cover use of a weapon in the primary hand, only the off-hand ... so Weapon Adaptation would allow you to use a rapier for defense in your off-hand, but not offensively without the standard -4 off-hand (or OHWT), nor in your primary hand at all.

It just doesn't feel right ... straight-up Weapon Adaptation in this situation brings up too many weird questions for my liking.
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Old 07-09-2012, 07:45 PM   #46
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Default Re: Zhentish Rapier Fencing

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Originally Posted by CousinX View Post
The Main-Gauche skill specifically doesn't cover use of a weapon in the primary hand
Check out Martial Arts, p. 58. If it didn't allow an attack at full skill with either hand, it would be poorer than any other combat skill in the game.

What's it like to be a student fencer?

Start with a rapier in one hand, and after some time, add a knife in the other?

Start with a knife in one hand, and after some time, add a rapier in the other?

Start with both, a bit steeper learning curve but with the benefit of flexibility? Even if you can't make a dual attack, having a short weapon in the off-hand prepares you for close combat.

Assuming the latter case, Off-Hand Training would be a good signature perk. You'd need a point each in Rapier and MG, then you'd add 6 more in MG...and then you need one more for the next level. Pull it out of rapier, put it in MG, and your rapier skill doesn't change, because now your default from Main-Gauche is just as good. However, now you've spent 8 on MG alone; if you have a couple in Fast-Draw, you qualify for a style perk, and Weapon Adaptation would be a good one.

If the off-hand weapon is less about distance flexibility and more a cool way to defend without a cumbersome shield, then Weapon Adaptation as a signature perk, and Off-Hand Training as your first style perk (and Unusual Training for Dual Attack as your second, if not a Weapon Master) may be a better way to go. Then you have only one skill for both primary weapons of the style, which I find cleaner, although your aesthetic sense may differ. Of course a style needn't have a sig perk, but this style seems a good candidate, because it requires a trio before you can fight in its most iconic fashion.

I say it "requires" three because I'm counting Weapon Adaptation. Without it, you take your default at -3 for one from the other. It's just not cost effective to buy up the default instead of improving the main skill thereby pulling the default along with it. Against a warrior with comparable training in a different style who uses paired weapons with the same skill, dual scimitars say, your fencer is always at a disadvantage unless you allow a Weapon Adaptation perk. Against a sword-and-shield fighter, who must also master a pair of skills, I suspect the latter enjoys more benefit from the diversity between his weapons than a sword-and-knife fighter (defense bonus, slam bonus, block missiles, low cost.)

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:44 PM   #47
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Default Re: DF: Forgotten Realms Martial-Arts Styles

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Check out Martial Arts, p. 58. If it didn't allow an attack at full skill with either hand, it would be poorer than any other combat skill in the game.
Sure enough. Yeah, that definitely needed to be fixed/clarified.


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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Assuming the latter case, Off-Hand Training would be a good signature perk. You'd need a point each in Rapier and MG, then you'd add 6 more in MG...and then you need one more for the next level. Pull it out of rapier, put it in MG, and your rapier skill doesn't change, because now your default from Main-Gauche is just as good. However, now you've spent 8 on MG alone; if you have a couple in Fast-Draw, you qualify for a style perk, and Weapon Adaptation would be a good one.
That's pretty much exactly how I'm looking at it, save for the part about pulling the point out of Rapier -- as I see it, that point needs to be there as part of the style cost.


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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
If the off-hand weapon is less about distance flexibility and more a cool way to defend without a cumbersome shield, then Weapon Adaptation as a signature perk, and Off-Hand Training as your first style perk (and Unusual Training for Dual Attack as your second, if not a Weapon Master) may be a better way to go. Then you have only one skill for both primary weapons of the style, which I find cleaner, although your aesthetic sense may differ. Of course a style needn't have a sig perk, but this style seems a good candidate, because it requires a trio before you can fight in its most iconic fashion.
Agreed: for similar weapons, a single weapon skill is certainly cleaner, and much more point-optimized. But even in canonical styles such as Nito Ryu, Broadsword and Shortsword are both style skills, despite an even closer default, and not even any rules ambiguities that make Weapon Adaptation questionable.


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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
I say it "requires" three because I'm counting Weapon Adaptation. Without it, you take your default at -3 for one from the other. It's just not cost effective to buy up the default instead of improving the main skill thereby pulling the default along with it. Against a warrior with comparable training in a different style who uses paired weapons with the same skill, dual scimitars say, your fencer is always at a disadvantage unless you allow a Weapon Adaptation perk. Against a sword-and-shield fighter, who must also master a pair of skills, I suspect the latter enjoys more benefit from the diversity between his weapons than a sword-and-knife fighter (defense bonus, slam bonus, block missiles, low cost.)
Totally: Shield and Cloak are more useful as separate off-hand skills than Main-Gauche, which as written, is pretty much useless itself, or else makes -any- primary-hand skill it's paired with a throw-away skill. Why take Jitte/Sai if Main-Gauche can be used to wield Jitte/Sai weapons in both hands without penalty, and uses fencing weapon rules?

So it's not that I disagree on the point-optimized use of the rules; particularly with the clarification for Main-Gauche in MA, by-the-numbers it works better to dump Rapier from the style altogether -- especially if we allow Weapon Adaptation to be bought up front rather than as a Style Perk.

But it stills seems to be using a loophole (and bending a rule to boot) to get around paying for what would otherwise be a required style skill -- prerequisite to learning the style's traits, and included in style cost. Weapon Adaptation doesn't just move a single weapon to a new skill -- it moves all weapons covered by that skill to the new one. I can see no exception for defaults; unless I'm reading RAW wrong, Main-Gauche + Weapon Adaptation (Rapier to Main-Gauche) not only includes any weapon used with full Rapier skill, but also any weapon that can be used with the Rapier skill at a default.

As I'm looking at it, even if a rapier+main-gauche fencer does buy Weapon Adaptation to use a single skill for both, he needs that 1 point in each of Rapier + Main-Gauche if they're both style skills in the style that makes Weapon Adaptation available to him.
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