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Old 05-09-2012, 06:30 AM   #31
Mailanka
 
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I thought it applied only to skill rolls.
You are correct. It only applies to skill rolls.

(And I've never found a high defense to be unbeatable. I routinely face parry skills of 16+ in Cherry Blossom Rain. I'll grant you that parry is easier to get around than dodge, as you can start to stack multi-use penalties on it and you can't parry bullets, but supers generally don't worry about bullets anyway, and any highly skilled character with the right tricks can get around a high defense value).
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:04 AM   #32
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I thought it applied only to skill rolls.
I see that you're right. Strangely, though, Higher Purpose does not have that restriction; it says "dice rolls." We took Daredevil the same way, through misreading. Not that it made a lot of difference; La Gata also could get +1 from Acrobatic Dodge, and she had Acrobatics-19 or so.

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Old 05-09-2012, 07:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I see that you're right. Strangely, though, Higher Purpose does not have that restriction; it says "dice rolls." We took Daredevil the same way, through misreading. Not that it made a lot of difference; La Gata also could get +1 from Acrobatic Dodge, and she had Acrobatics-19 or so.
You could take something like:

Higher Purpose (Act Crazy) [5]
Ridiculous Luck (Only for critical failures while acting crazy, -80%) [12]


Looking at that, it's pretty clear that Daredevil is slightly overpriced in comparison. Probably because it's trying to sell you a package of two unpriced, not-existing-elsewhere advantages. The +1 to skill while taking unnecessary risks, and the rerolling critical failures while taking unnecessary risks. I would prefer to look at those as two separate advantages. The first one can't be worth less than Higher Purpose. And the second doesn't much compare to the Luck advantage. I don't know how many critical failures one can be expected to roll in a ten minute period. It gets to be worth more if your character rolls a lot, or if he's doing something where critical failures are much more important. I would prefer to see it split off into two separate advantages, since that's what it pretty much is. But unlike with Combat Reflexes, here the price is increased because it's sold as a package, probably because it's not exactly duplicable somewhere else. The biggest problem with it is the leveled version from Supers. Since it's two separate advantages, you're purchasing the critical failure rerolls part (which makes up the bulk of the cost) multiple time for no reason. Just compare it to Higher Purpose, which is only five points per level.

I just figured you had probably house ruled it. That's probably what I would do if anyone ever wanted to take it outside of DF, where I don't like messing with things too much.

I'm actually playing a speedster right now, and I looked into all this when making that character. I went with Daredevil, but only because the consequences would be disastrous if she were to have a critical failure. She could slam into something, causing a twelve megaton explosion. And so I'm paying a premium to reroll all critical failures, rather than one every ten minutes with Ridiculous Luck. There's no other way in the system to do something that. There's no way that I can see to purchase an advantage to only reroll failures that would result in an accidental multimegaton explosion.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I see that you're right. Strangely, though, Higher Purpose does not have that restriction; it says "dice rolls." We took Daredevil the same way, through misreading. Not that it made a lot of difference; La Gata also could get +1 from Acrobatic Dodge, and she had Acrobatics-19 or so.

Bill Stoddard
Acrobatic dodges are worth +2, not +1, and you only get that benefit once during your turn.

In any case, if the problem is high dodge, why didn't the GM hit her with high skill (A skill 30 swordmaster could drop that dodge to 8 with a major deceptive attack. A feint would likely be even better, as she doesn't sound like she has high combat skills to compensate), or sweeping area attacks (the classic hulk-tactic for defeating speeders: destroy all the ground around you and hammer out shockwaves with your fist). Never mind tricks like mind control or malediction-based attacks.

"You can't hit me" doesn't seem to be more game-breaking than "You can't hurt me," less actually, since you have more tools at your disposal to crack very high defenses than you have to crack very high DR.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
Looking at that, it's pretty clear that Daredevil is slightly overpriced in comparison. Probably because it's trying to sell you a package of two unpriced, not-existing-elsewhere advantages. The +1 to skill while taking unnecessary risks, and the rerolling critical failures while taking unnecessary risks. I would prefer to look at those as two separate advantages. The first one can't be worth less than Higher Purpose. And the second doesn't much compare to the Luck advantage. I don't know how many critical failures one can be expected to roll in a ten minute period. It gets to be worth more if your character rolls a lot, or if he's doing something where critical failures are much more important. I would prefer to see it split off into two separate advantages, since that's what it pretty much is. But unlike with Combat Reflexes, here the price is increased because it's sold as a package, probably because it's not exactly duplicable somewhere else. The biggest problem with it is the leveled version from Supers. Since it's two separate advantages, you're purchasing the critical failure rerolls part (which makes up the bulk of the cost) multiple time for no reason. Just compare it to Higher Purpose, which is only five points per level.

I just figured you had probably house ruled it. That's probably what I would do if anyone ever wanted to take it outside of DF, where I don't like messing with things too much.
"Doing crazy things" is too broad for higher purpose. It has to be more specific than that, since "doing crazy things" is what players do very often. That's on par with "Higher Purpose(Fighting)." And Daredevil is superior to Luck because the main purpose of luck is to wipe out critical failures, and Daredevil does this constantly, so long as you're taking gross risks. Luck is only superior to daredevil in that it can wipe out basic failures in addition to critical failures (and Daredevil does that a bit with the +1 to skill rolls), and that it can be applied even when you're not taking foolish risks.

Ultimately, I think you should look at Daredevil as a specialized and more constantly available form of luck.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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the main purpose of luck is to wipe out critical failures
I've never heard that before. I use it mainly for either offensive purposes, such as landing an attack (maybe trying for a crit if it's important) or a spell (I need to succeed by more!), or for defensive purposes, like on a parry or a failed resistance roll. Only rarely do I use it for critical failures. Normal failures, sure, quite often, but critical ones? Not more than regular failures, I'd say. A failed defense roll is a failed defense roll. That axe doesn't care whether your head is in the way because you only slightly failed.

Quote:
"Doing crazy things" is too broad for higher purpose. It has to be more specific than that, since "doing crazy things" is what players do very often.
I must be interpreting this very differently from you. Look at the example for Daredevil: charging gunmen with automatic weapons. That's crazy. That's not normal adventurer behavior. In all my many years of gaming, I don't think I've ever seen anyone that nuts. And those are the sorts of things that Daredevil says its bonus applies to: the exceptionally insane. Because it's a realistic advantage, meant to mimic some real people. Would you charge men firing at you with automatic weapons? I have a hard time thinking of anything crazier than that. I've seen characters confront gods in a way that was crazier, but I can't think of a whole lot in a realistic game where there could be some chance of success that is crazier than a banzai charge.

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Old 05-09-2012, 09:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Acrobatic dodges are worth +2, not +1, and you only get that benefit once during your turn.

In any case, if the problem is high dodge, why didn't the GM hit her with high skill (A skill 30 swordmaster could drop that dodge to 8 with a major deceptive attack. A feint would likely be even better, as she doesn't sound like she has high combat skills to compensate), or sweeping area attacks (the classic hulk-tactic for defeating speeders: destroy all the ground around you and hammer out shockwaves with your fist). Never mind tricks like mind control or malediction-based attacks.

"You can't hit me" doesn't seem to be more game-breaking than "You can't hurt me," less actually, since you have more tools at your disposal to crack very high defenses than you have to crack very high DR.
With Dex-19 and Per-19 she had appallingly high combat skills, even before I sank lots of points into them. I think I got her up to Smallsword-25, which was higher than just about all of our adversaries. Certainly it would have been fair for our GM to do as you suggest, but in point of fact he didn't.

And, you know, to some degree, I think there's a difference between "you come up against someone who's a speedster or a combat monster, who has attack skills high enough to compensate for your defenses" and "every random brick or blaster you meet just happens to have Attack-25."

Bill Stoddard
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:09 AM   #38
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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And, you know, to some degree, I think there's a difference between "you come up against someone who's a speedster or a combat monster, who has attack skills high enough to compensate for your defenses" and "every random brick or blaster you meet just happens to have Attack-25."
Explosions still get you, though. It's easy enough to have every mook rigged to blow. Suicide bomber terrorists armed with grenade launchers. And everyone's going to figure that out quickly, aren't they? You can't shoot this person, so try something else. How easy would it be to subdue her with a loud sound? Or radiation?
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:28 AM   #39
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
With Dex-19 and Per-19 she had appallingly high combat skills, even before I sank lots of points into them. I think I got her up to Smallsword-25, which was higher than just about all of our adversaries. Certainly it would have been fair for our GM to do as you suggest, but in point of fact he didn't.

And, you know, to some degree, I think there's a difference between "you come up against someone who's a speedster or a combat monster, who has attack skills high enough to compensate for your defenses" and "every random brick or blaster you meet just happens to have Attack-25."

Bill Stoddard
That doesn't really invalidate my point. You claimed that you found speedsters broke the game more than bricks, but how is Dodge 16 any harder to penetrate than a DR of 80? You're spending about 400 points on DX, Basic Speed and Altered Time Rate, and a DR of 80 is about the same cost (in fact, a brick would probably have a lower DR than that and have more strength, but a DR of 40 is still pretty impossible to beat in most TL 8 conditions). Your speedster certainly couldn't harm someone with a DR of 80, and perhaps you'd make the same criticism if every speedster or blaster happened to have the ability to defeat 80 points of DR.

Secondly, no, Attack 25 isn't all that strange. If you flip through the comics, you'll find extreme-level fighters again and again. Captain America is certainly an extra-ordinarily skilled fighter (your GURPS Supers puts a Man Plus at DX 20), as is Spider-man. The Marvel site puts Thor at maxed fighting skill. So presumably, all three of these characters could go toe to toe with your speedster pretty reasonably well. Oh, and Hawkeye would presumably have an Archery skill of 30.

But more to the point, supers stories are all about weird powers and strange solutions. A pyrokinetic who sweeps flames through an entire area doesn't care if you "dodge" his attacks, because his attacks are everywhere. Storm doesn't care how fast you're zipping around because her winds are still hammering you with huge penalties, you're slipping and skidding on ice, and lightning's going to hit you at some point. Cyclops turns on the wide-beam attack and forces you to deal with an AoE attack. Professor Xavier just looks at her and she stops because that's what Mind Control does. We've got time manipulation powers, other speedsters, curses, massive auras of doom, falling buildings, mass swarms of robots armed with super-accurate lasers, and so on.

It's not particularly out of genre for villains to suddenly start bringing lots of high skill attacks, AoE attacks or maledictions. No, I take that back, but the only "out of genre" element would be the word "suddenly." Supers should always feature villains with obscene DX, enhanced time sense, maledictions, AoE attacks (part and parcel of being any kind of super, really). If Dodge 16 is breaking your game, then someone's doing something wrong. Supers is a lot like Dungeon Fantasy that way: It thrives on unusual fights with unusual characters who have extreme capabilities.

(Not the mooks, of course, but everyone can defeat guys with guns. If you can't casually defeat guys with guns, you're not a super).
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:42 AM   #40
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I've never heard that before. I use it mainly for either offensive purposes, such as landing an attack (maybe trying for a crit if it's important) or a spell (I need to succeed by more!), or for defensive purposes, like on a parry or a failed resistance roll. Only rarely do I use it for critical failures. Normal failures, sure, quite often, but critical ones? Not more than regular failures, I'd say. A failed defense roll is a failed defense roll. That axe doesn't care whether your head is in the way because you only slightly failed.
Regular failures happen a lot though, in the course of an hour, unless you have really extreme skill or you're seldom rolling. So you might be picking and choosing those failures. In my experience, it's the criticals that kill you more than anything else (Luck has the advantage that it can force an opponent to reroll a critical success, whereas Daredevil doesn't have such a wording). You can generally recover from a failure, but not from a critical failure.

You'll note, of course, that Luck has some advantages, but I've noted those advantages. I think they're cancelled out by the fact that if you roll three critical failures in a row, Luck won't help you, but Daredevil will.

Quote:
I must be interpreting this very differently from you. Look at the example for Daredevil: charging gunmen with automatic weapons. That's crazy. That's not normal adventurer behavior. In all my many years of gaming, I don't think I've ever seen anyone that nuts. And those are the sorts of things that Daredevil says its bonus applies to: the exceptionally insane.
A lot of this discussion will boil down to what we think Daredevil applies to, certainly. But there's a huge swathe of territory between "Hiding behind cover" and "Screaming into automatic fire." The latter is suicidal, which is why you don't see people doing it much, and if we're going to define Daredevil as "Only applying when its suicidal," then I agree, Higher Purpose (Suicidal) could certainly cover it.

But what about just not taking cover and returning fire. Is that covered by Daredevil? Or leaving cover to charge the enemy, but doing it in a sweeping manner that avoids most of their fire? Is that covered by daredevil? The example gives us two extremes and nothing in the middle. If you interpret it to mean "taking risks," then Daredevil is a very broad advantage.

And what about context? Is charging at men with automatic weapons all that suicidal when you have a DR of 200? Does your daredevil activate then? Because Bill's character was gaining the benefit while she had a Dodge of 16 and a Basic Move of 12, which would get her up to those guys in a heartbeat and avoided all of their fire. She's following the letter of that example. Should she get the benefit?

I think it's safe to say, personally, that Daredevil covers a lot more than just suicidal actions. I think that fits the wording of daredevil: If you're taking an "unnecessary risk," you gain the +1 bonus. Going after 10 men armed with automatic weapons with nothing but a pistol and some grit, does that count as an "unnecessary risk" even if you take cover? That's open to interpretation, and I think that's good, but I think it covers more than you suggest it does.
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