Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-27-2011, 06:18 PM   #1
JCurwen3
 
JCurwen3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Default Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

What should "Not for skills or skill defaults" be worth? I think it'd be different for each stat.

HT contributes to very few skill rolls, and has high usefulness outside of skills. ST... wait, does it contribute to any? Per and Will affect some skills, but again, I'd probably place the limitation value as the same for HT. Thoughts on what this should be?

More importantly, we have DX and IQ. I'd be inclined to say it's -80% for DX. For IQ, I'd say it's -40% if playing by default rules (Will and Per based on IQ), and -80% if you treat Will and Per as separate stats.

Does that sound right?

Also, the question came up in our game whether someone with Cannot Learn should be able to improve DX or IQ if it had this limitation that it didn't improve skills. I'm on the fence on that one.
__________________
-JC
JCurwen3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 06:54 PM   #2
Kazander
 
Kazander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
I'd be inclined to say it's -80% for DX.
DX only does two things for you: improves skills and improves Basic Speed. By definition if you don't want skills, you buy Basic Speed which is 5/level, or -75% as a limitation on DX. IQ is more complex....and I'm not ready to delve into that. :-)
Kazander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 07:09 PM   #3
JCurwen3
 
JCurwen3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
DX only does two things for you: improves skills and improves Basic Speed. By definition if you don't want skills, you buy Basic Speed which is 5/level, or -75% as a limitation on DX. IQ is more complex....and I'm not ready to delve into that. :-)
There are straight DX rolls and contests though. Just flipping to a random page in the Basic Set, the Clinging advantage calls for a DX roll. I know there are several others, they just escape me right now.

Not to mention that this is complicated by having the modifiers Requires Attribute Roll (DX) and Based on DX on your advantages... so improved DX that didn't assist any skill or skill default would still have some value aside from its role in Basic Speed.
__________________
-JC
JCurwen3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 08:01 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

On a slight tangent, it seems unlikely that one PC would buy "Not For Skills" while another does not. That's more the sort of thing you'd impose campaign wide -- a Stat Normalization houserule. In that case, everyone has the disad, so it doesn't matter how many points it costs.

If the goal is to create a PC that has some sort of agility that somehow doesn't benefit skills (and I'm finding that a bit difficult to picture), then it might help to rephrase it. Rather than asking "how do I get DX without improving skills", ask "what is this character good at", and then buy the appropriate Advantages or skills - Acrobatics, Catfall, whatever.

Or is it a theoretical exercise in game system reductionism?
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 08:07 PM   #5
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
There are straight DX rolls and contests though.
It wouldn't make sense to me that you still have the DX rolls when skill isn't involved.
David Johnston2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 09:45 PM   #6
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bullhead City, AZ
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

Well, given that IQ +1 is [20] and IQ! +1 is [10], then the portion of IQ's cost that affects the relevant attribute and skill checks can't cost more than [10].

Allowing the increase to affect the attribute checks but not the skill checks appears to be removing most of its' function. Say, -80% applied to the [10] that covers attribute and skill checks? (... working out to [2]).

Assuming we go with that, IQ +1 with Not For Skills should cost [12] per point given that it increases Will and Per as well, [2] per point if it doesn't increase Will and Per.

So a -40% applied to IQ and a -80% applied to IQ!. (IQ (Not For Skills, -40%) [12] and IQ! (Not For Skills, -80%) [2].)


As for the 'correct' values, I believe that each attribute would have its' own Not For Skills value rather than being a one-size-fits-all value.
Sunrunners_Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2011, 02:32 PM   #7
PK
Assistant GURPS Line Editor
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

<speaking as a GM, not a line editor>

So, you want attribute levels that add to secondary characteristics and to "raw" rolls only, but not to actual skills, or their defaults? That would need to vary by attribute, of course.

No skill rolls are based on ST. So this is really a "Cannot float rolls to ST" limitation, which I'd call -5% at most. In fact, the 10 points/level for ST is really Lifting ST 1 + Striking ST 1 + HP 1, with no budget for skills, so it's most fair to call this a -0% limitation and make it a quirk.

DX costs 20/level, but 5 of that is for Basic Speed, leaving 15/level. Of that 15, it's primarily for increasing skills, though raw DX rolls do come up quite frequently, especially in unarmed combat. Many rules work like (e.g.) "Roll vs. DX or Jumping," which means a high DX can still replace quite a few skill rolls even if it doesn't add to skills. So I'd probably split it at 10/level for skills, 5/level for "other DX rolls," which works out to a net -50% limitation on DX.

HT costs 10/level, but 8 of that is for Basic Speed and FP. So that just leaves 2 points/level for general HT rolls and for skills. (And is the reason HT is arguably the most cost-effective attribute that exists, but that's a tangent.) And the thing is, the average adventurer will probably roll against HT raw more often than he ever uses HT-based skills! Thus, I can't see this being worth more than a quarter of those 2 points, which means a net -5% limitation on HT.

IQ is trickier. I think we'll have to look at its facets separately.

IQ! (that's forum shorthand for "IQ minus Will and Per") costs 10/level. Of that, it's primarily for skills, though there are many advantages that require straight IQ rolls, and many situations under which the GM will call for an IQ roll to see if the character remembers or recognizes something. So I'd probably keep the 1/3-vs-2/3 split from DX, but round more harshly and say 4 points is for raw IQ rolls and 6 points is for skills. That'd be a net -30% limitation if it didn't affect Will and Per, but if it does affect them (and their skills), read on.

For Will, there are very few Will-based skills; instead, Will is primarily a resistance attribute. I'd call it a 1/4 split and make this a -20% limitation on Will.

For Per, it's similar -- people make raw Per rolls all the time. While Per-based skills are definitely more common than Will-based ones, it's also important not to make Per too cheap in comparison to Acute Senses. Thus, I'd stick with the same -20%.

Thus, the limitation on full IQ (affecting all IQ-, Will-, and Per-based skills) would affect a net 8 (6 + 1 + 1) out of 20 points, for a -40% limitation. But when applying it to separate levels of Will and Per, it'd be -20%.

Note that under no circumstances would I let someone reverse these rulings and buy "IQ, skills only," simply because that's too abusive compared to Talents. Attributes are already the best value for raising skills; they don't need to be reduced further to assist with doing so. Similarly, this can get very broken very quickly if you let it be applied to reduced levels of the attribute -- I would only allow it to be applied to positive values, no exceptions.

</speaking as a GM, not a line editor>
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 07:38 AM   #8
JCurwen3
 
JCurwen3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Note that under no circumstances would I let someone reverse these rulings and buy "IQ, skills only," simply because that's too abusive compared to Talents. Attributes are already the best value for raising skills; they don't need to be reduced further to assist with doing so. Similarly, this can get very broken very quickly if you let it be applied to reduced levels of the attribute -- I would only allow it to be applied to positive values, no exceptions.
Thanks, I like those numbers. And yes, I'd never even consider the reverse "only for skills", that way lies madness and terrible abuse.

This came up as a curiosity because my group asked about why they couldn't increase DX and IQ but just have the increases not affect skills if they had Cannot Learn, which could represent some engineering tweaks to a machine character that still can't "learn" any skills without the right chip slots for their MA. I thought it seemed reasonable to have as a campaign feature for the disadvantage, or maybe at a -5% limitation on Cannot Learn, maybe only -0% if they also can't buy HT, Will, or Per without "not on skills" (increases in those are currently allowed in the text of the disadvantage and would lead to increases in the few relevant skills).
__________________
-JC
JCurwen3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2011, 11:56 AM   #9
Figleaf23
Banned
 
Figleaf23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Default Re: Buying an Attribute "Not for Skills"

I 'float' skill rolls among attributes quite a lot. And it would appear that compared to at least some others here, I also call for frequent attribute checks directly. Furthermore, attributes seem to have fundamentally different pricing characteristics that other traits.

All of these factors taken together would suggest to me that the discount should not be as much as some suggest -- more like the range of -30% for HT, Will and Per, and -50% for DX and IQ.
Figleaf23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
attributes, defaults, limitation, skills

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.