Bringing a gun to bear.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In any situation where one party is expecting trouble, their assumed start-of-combat-time maneuver is Wait. When it isn't, well, they weren't expecting trouble.

Wait for what? If you declare a wait you have to say what you're waiting for and what you're going to do once it occurs. In my games I've always made these have to be fairly specifically declared.

Now, I can see your point if one side knows that some guys are about to walk through a door and are going to light them up once they do. But I have difficulty thinking the same thing is going on with a patrol through a city who could be attacked (or not) form any direction at any time.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Wait for what? If you declare a wait you have to say what you're waiting for and what you're going to do once it occurs. In my games I've always made these have to be fairly specifically declared.

Now, I can see your point if one side knows that some guys are about to walk through a door and are going to light them up once they do. But I have difficulty thinking the same thing is going on with a patrol through a city who could be attacked (or not) form any direction at any time.

Again that patrol is not combat time, and partial surprise rules apply... combat time you have to reasonably expect an opponent that second.

[Kromm]

"Attack by shooting along my designated field of fire if anything moves there" is an entirely valid Wait condition, and so are "Attack anybody who pops up on that roof" and "Attack anybody who walks into sight carrying a gun." The rules are clear on this, what with "a foe moves into range" being the first example, and the third example being expressly that of covering an area with a ranged weapon. As long as you specify the maneuver you'll take and what will trigger it, you're good. Triggers can be as general as you want! If they're too general, of course, this tactic can backfire; see Target Discrimination (p. B390).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Attack by shooting along my designated field of fire if anything moves there" is an entirely valid Wait condition, and so are "Attack anybody who pops up on that roof" and "Attack anybody who walks into sight carrying a gun." The rules are clear on this, what with "a foe moves into range" being the first example, and the third example being expressly that of covering an area with a ranged weapon. As long as you specify the maneuver you'll take and what will trigger it, you're good. Triggers can be as general as you want! If they're too general, of course, this tactic can backfire; see Target Discrimination (p. B390).

You can't Move while taking Waits can you?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You can't Move while taking Waits can you?

No, this is true. It's a bit of a problem with Wait, in my view. I think it would be entirely reasonable to take the movement portion of your declared response with your Wait, and then not have that if/when the Wait is triggered. So you could step, Wait, and then Attack, Feint, or Ready if triggered – or take up to half your Move, Wait with no defenses, and then All-Out Attack if triggered. This isn't optimal – enemies would probably just run where you can't see/hit them, because they could tell you've committed – but with firearms there's always the threat of you shooting them if they try to shoot you.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, this is true. It's a bit of a problem with Wait, in my view. I think it would be entirely reasonable to take the movement portion of your declared response with your Wait, and then not have that if/when the Wait is triggered. So you could step, Wait, and then Attack, Feint, or Ready if triggered – or take up to half your Move, Wait with no defenses, and then All-Out Attack if triggered. This isn't optimal – enemies would probably just run where you can't see/hit them, because they could tell you've committed – but with firearms there's always the threat of you shooting them if they try to shoot you.

From what I've read about combat tactics (I've no military experience of my own), especially urban tactics one *should* be able to take a 'Move and Wait' manoeuvre.

Like a squad moving down a road, expecting trouble from a side streets, doorway, rooftop or something.

Supposing the Move and Wait allows you half move, and if the condition of your wait occurs, you perform an Attack as per Move and Attack. It's worse than a normal Wait, but you get to move as well. Perhaps it requires some sort of Perception roll to notice the thing which triggers the wait fast enough (just to make it a bit harder than a stationary Wait). Also, diifcult terrain, like debris, would have some effect on the movement rate (or the risk of tripping), since the attention is mostly on looking for enemies. Perhaps some movement reduction, or some DX rolls midified by spees to avoid mishaps . And perhaps a well-trained group can remedy this a bit by having a guy at the front as designated 'eyes on the road' to warn the rest about an upcoming pothole or things like that.
I'd like a 'Move & Wait' manoeuvre something like that.

As opposed to the situation where the squad is hoofing it. They will still be keeping an eye open, but their main focus is moving. So their attention is split. And their weapons would be in a position compromising readiness to shoot and ease of movement, especially for heavier weapons or in close quarters or with obstructing foliage. Unless the squad is ín Combat Time, this would be Partial Surprise. But they should still be better off than the squad that just sprints and.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kromm

So you could step, Wait, and then Attack, Feint, or Ready if triggered – or take up to half your Move, Wait with no defenses, and then All-Out Attack if triggered.

You should be able to take up to half your Move, Wait with defenses, and then Attack if triggered, that's the standard squad movement, though we probably need a Per check to trigger defense/attack.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

You should be able to take up to half your Move, Wait with defenses, and then Attack if triggered, that's the standard squad movement, though we probably need a Per check to trigger defense/attack.

No way. You can't take half your move and then Attack, so there's no way you can take half your move, then Wait to Attack.

If you All Out Attack, as Kromm noted, that pretty much works. Permitting Move and Attack for a Wait isn't RAW, I think, but might be imaginable. But no way you can do more than the other maneuvers would permit.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

This seems to fit with actual tactical doctrine, which is that you don't charge into an area you can't see when there might be an ambush there (you may well charge an ambush after it goes off, revealing itself), but that you do sometimes charge unprepared people to cause maximum surprise and take them out before they can react.

Flash-bang is your friend. Toss in a concussion grenade, earn a round or two where your enemies are stunned, and then you can clear the room.

[pieclone]

For regular infantry fire and movement you've usually got more than one individual moving in a tactical formation with one covering and the other moving would you not likely be using either "Move" or "Wait" (representing running from cover to cover or providing cover fire/overwatch)?

The behaviour of an individual moving with a weapon at the ready and actively seeking a target is much harder to represent within RAW. It would seem to me that a kludged combination of Move & Wait with an extreme focus on the front 30 degrees and maybe 1/3 move speed would best represent the "swat walk". Does anyone else have a better suggestion of how to model this?

I suspect (or hope!) much of this will become moot in a few days when Tactical Shooting is released.

*crosses fingers*