Rifle used as meelee weapon - Page 2

HeroPenguin · 08-12-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

[*]Brawling to deliver a swift butt-stroke in close combat.

Does this mean that any similar attacks will also use brawling? For example, striking with a sword hilt, or pistol-whip? If yes, than I just became extremely satisfied with the flexibility of combat. XD

Thank you Kromm!

Kromm · 08-12-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroPenguin

Does this mean that any similar attacks will also use brawling? For example, striking with a sword hilt, or pistol-whip? If yes, than I just became extremely satisfied with the flexibility of combat. XD

Brawling specifically includes the use of fist loads. Pistols, pommels, etc., all qualify.

flyingwombat · 08-12-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you're at all trained with the weapon, I'd treat the "improvised" penalty as a "familiarity" penalty and just dispense with it. The right skills to use are:

Spear to thrust with the bayonet.
Two-Handed Axe/Mace to "club" the weapon.
Brawling to deliver a swift butt-stroke in close combat.

No rifle I've seen has had a sufficiently uniform mass distribution to justify Staff skill.

In third edition High Tech the notes on the Lebel/Berthier say it was a better bayonet platform than the rifle, reflecting French military thinking at the time. A +1 to Spear skill is reflect this.

Remember "In a man to man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine." --- Erwin Rommel, Attacks, Athena Press, 1979. pg. 60.

Rupert · 08-12-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kure

Hi, by which skill is used and what stats have a TL6 rifle in meele combat?

With a bayonet mounted, it's a spear, wielded in two-hands. Be unkind to people trying this with only one hand. Properly used in both hands I see no reason to penalise the user's skill, though familiarity would apply (so some guy who's only every used a normal spear would be at -2, and vice versa).

Without the bayonet it depends how it's held, but in general I'd go for Two-Handed Axe/Mace, but only doing mace damage (sw+3 cr) - they aren't mauls. Consider a penalty to skill as well, say -2, and it definately unbalanced.

For short, light modern (TL7/8) rifles I'd only allow a reach of 1 (both with and without a bayonet), and I'd knock the 'club' damage down to sw+2 (as a light mace).

kure · 08-13-2005, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you're at all trained with the weapon, I'd treat the "improvised" penalty as a "familiarity" penalty and just dispense with it. The right skills to use are:

Spear to thrust with the bayonet.
Two-Handed Axe/Mace to "club" the weapon.
Brawling to deliver a swift butt-stroke in close combat.

No rifle I've seen has had a sufficiently uniform mass distribution to justify Staff skill.

whow, I'm highly suprised with browling.

And what damage should have rifle used this way?
Damage like fist even w brass knuckless is to low

Z09SS · 08-13-2005, 01:09 AM

I would say that when swinging by the barrel two-hand axe mace is correct, but the damage would depend on the size of the gun. An M16A1 is not going to do near the damage as a Mosin-Nagant M-1891/30. The Mosin is longer and heavier.

And the M16 has an ufortunate tendency to break when treated this way.

I think I will have to look at my list of guns and make a table; treat these as mace and these as maul and so on. Or just list the damages in generic terms.

For years I have been treating sword bayonets as glaives. They do have a long cutting edge...

Wonder Lemming · 08-13-2005, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z09SS

For years I have been treating sword bayonets as glaives. They do have a long cutting edge...

...unless it's a spike bayonet.

Another thing to consider is that there is a chance you'll damage your weapon smacking some foo upside the head with it. It's probably not so much of a concern if you're using a normal infantry rifle (treat a crit fail as a jammed rifle...maybe) but a snipers weapon (especially TL6) would probably have it's optics put out of line very easily and prolonged use as a skull-crusher is likely to degrade the weapon's accuracy.

Rupert · 08-13-2005, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonder Lemming

...unless it's a spike bayonet.

Which sword-bayonet's don't. :)

Wonder Lemming · 08-14-2005, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert

Which sword-bayonet's don't. :)

Ah, yes... I suppose it does help when I read the post properly...

Kale · 08-25-2005, 02:10 PM

I've thought about this for games in the past and have some house rules I've been using.
For lower tech games, realistically soldiers were drilled in using their rifles as melee weapons. In the days of black powder you'd probably only get a couple shots off before the close-in fighting started, so grunts would probably receive at least some training in using the rifle/musket as a melee weapon.
My quick and dirty solution was to create a physical/average skill (longarm melee) to represent the training such a soldier would receive. It's probably most appropriate for TL4 and lower TL5. The skill covered general use of the weapon for either butt-smashes, (Thrust+1 crushing for a heavy weapon?), short butt swings (Swing-1 crushing) and then regular bayonet stabs. For the 'grabbing the barrel with both hands' technique I treated it as an awkward sword or polearm, so Swing+1 crushing and takes a turn to re-ready. All this was rolled against the rifle skill. In higher tech games where grunts would probably not be formally tought to administer beat-downs with their rifles I'd agree with the above posts that Brawling seems most appropriate except for bayonet skill, which would be spear-1. Also, a modern semi-plastic rifle would probably be at an additional -1 or so to the above damages for swinging attacks due to the lower weight and/or length. In terms of defense, I'd say skill/2 for a modern assault weapon and maybe skill/2+1 for a long rifle.
Needless to say, any use of a rifle like this would probably be unhealthy for the rifle. The safest strike is probably the straight-in butt smash, as the butt is usually fairly solid. Anything else, you might consider a Malf check on the rifle, with penalties for the situation and amount of abuse. The two-handed wild swinging is probably the most risky as you could hit the action or magazine on something.

08-13-2005, 01:09 AM	#16
Z09SS Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Holiday, FL	Re: Rifle used as meelee weapon I would say that when swinging by the barrel two-hand axe mace is correct, but the damage would depend on the size of the gun. An M16A1 is not going to do near the damage as a Mosin-Nagant M-1891/30. The Mosin is longer and heavier. And the M16 has an ufortunate tendency to break when treated this way. I think I will have to look at my list of guns and make a table; treat these as mace and these as maul and so on. Or just list the damages in generic terms. For years I have been treating sword bayonets as glaives. They do have a long cutting edge...

08-25-2005, 02:10 PM	#20
Kale Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Cowtown, Canada	Re: Rifle used as meelee weapon I've thought about this for games in the past and have some house rules I've been using. For lower tech games, realistically soldiers were drilled in using their rifles as melee weapons. In the days of black powder you'd probably only get a couple shots off before the close-in fighting started, so grunts would probably receive at least some training in using the rifle/musket as a melee weapon. My quick and dirty solution was to create a physical/average skill (longarm melee) to represent the training such a soldier would receive. It's probably most appropriate for TL4 and lower TL5. The skill covered general use of the weapon for either butt-smashes, (Thrust+1 crushing for a heavy weapon?), short butt swings (Swing-1 crushing) and then regular bayonet stabs. For the 'grabbing the barrel with both hands' technique I treated it as an awkward sword or polearm, so Swing+1 crushing and takes a turn to re-ready. All this was rolled against the rifle skill. In higher tech games where grunts would probably not be formally tought to administer beat-downs with their rifles I'd agree with the above posts that Brawling seems most appropriate except for bayonet skill, which would be spear-1. Also, a modern semi-plastic rifle would probably be at an additional -1 or so to the above damages for swinging attacks due to the lower weight and/or length. In terms of defense, I'd say skill/2 for a modern assault weapon and maybe skill/2+1 for a long rifle. Needless to say, any use of a rifle like this would probably be unhealthy for the rifle. The safest strike is probably the straight-in butt smash, as the butt is usually fairly solid. Anything else, you might consider a Malf check on the rifle, with penalties for the situation and amount of abuse. The two-handed wild swinging is probably the most risky as you could hit the action or magazine on something.