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Old 12-19-2008, 02:11 AM   #1
aruizo
 
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Default Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Hi! I've take a look to GURPS Lite Spanish and say that it have some mistakes mixing translation spanish and italian.

Anyone knows if someone in spain have gurps 4ed translation in mind?

Greets to everyone!
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by aruizo
Hi! I've take a look to GURPS Lite Spanish and say that it have some mistakes mixing translation spanish and italian.
In Spanish, I know only the third edition of GURPS Lite.

Quote:
Anyone knows if someone in spain have gurps 4ed translation in mind?
Seemingly not, but I can be wrong. In fact, I would wish to be wrong about this.

Regards
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

It would surprise me a lot to find out that the man who translated GURPS Lite to Spanish - who is himself Spanish - got the languages mixed up. Can you tell us why you think this is partly in Italian?
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Old 12-20-2008, 01:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

I must say that the translation is a mess. I've been waiting for it for a LONG time, and the results where... discouraging. Steve Jackson Games has a HUGE reputation for top notch editing, and I feel that this GURPS Lite HURTS it among the Spanish speaking community (that consists of not only Spain, but Latin America). It seems as if this guy simply met his deadline by delivering an unfinished product.

First, I'm native Spanish speaker, with acceptable levels of English and French. I do not know any Portuguese or Italian.

This is not a full review of the mistakes in GURPS Lite Spanish Edition:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Lite page 6
Basic Levation (BL)
Basic Levation esse le maxime peso que tu pote levar super tu capite con un
mano in un secunda. Esse equal a (FOxFO)/5 libras. Si le BL esse 10 libras o plus,
arrotunda al plus proxime numero integre; pro exemplo, 16.2 libras deveni 16 libras.
Le medie humano habe FO 10 e un BL de 20 libras.

Manetate
Decide si tu esee sinistromane o dextromane. Si tu essaya facer quecunque significante
con tu debile mano, tu esse a un pena de -4 a tu habilitate. Iste pena non
applica a cosas que tu normalmente face con tu debile mano, como usar un scuto.
GURPS non distingue inter le sinistromane o le dextromane; ambe esse 0 punctos.
Totevia, esser ambidextere esse un avantage que costa punctos – vide p. 9.
This is not Spanish. It feels like Italian or Portuguese. This happens in most (or all, I didn't to a through checking) the text boxes.

Now, it's not the only problem, just the most visible one. Some of the translations are babelfish-y, and in some part, an English word has slipped by (babelfish-y translation example-> Rate of Fire (GURPS) -> "Indice de fuego" (Gurps Lite Spanish Edition p. 23)-> Should be "Cadencia de Tiro"; leftover English word example-> Varies (GURPS Lite Spanish Edition p. 16 center column, second row)-> Should be "Varias")

I suggest that until you get someone to review the translation, you take it off the site. A half arsed translation can be acceptable for something on a fan webpage, but we've learnt to expect only the best editting from SJGames, and this hurts this image.
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Last edited by Kuroshima; 12-21-2008 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Checked the dictionary for some technical translations
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Old 12-23-2008, 07:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
This is not a full review of the mistakes in GURPS Lite Spanish Edition:


This is not Spanish. It feels like Italian or Portuguese. This happens in most (or all, I didn't to a through checking) the text boxes.
That would be Interlingua. I translated GURPS Lite to Interlingua... Ironically, I was flamed elsewhere on the net for not knowing Interlingua because twice in GURPS Lite[IA], I used the Spanish 'mas' by mistake instead of proper Interlingua 'plus'.

Headings that are filled with Interlingua include: "Tabula de Posturas" (p. 30); "Mundos de Jocar" (p. 39), and all the text boxes (I checked).

I was going to volunteer to translate GURPS Lite[ES] but was afraid of putting too much on my plate again. But now it looks like I got into it after all ^_^

Last edited by Almafeta; 12-23-2008 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

I'm going to do a cursory search over GURPS Lite Spanish Edition, and try to locate all the mistranslations, pieces of the interlingua translation, strange sentence structures, etc. I'll bold the parts of a sentence that would need change. I'm going to tag each correction with one of the following tags:
  • [Interlingua] -> This is a fragment from the interlingua translation, should be replaced with the appropriate one form the spanish translation
  • [Mistranslation] -> This was either translated literally or simply the translator used a word that has the wrong connotation in spanish, even though it's a correct translation
  • [Sentence] -> The sentence, while maybe gramatically correct, doesn't make much sense in spanish, or is hard to understand.
  • [Style] -> This is a mere style suggestion, making the text more like something a native spanish speaker would write, instead of something translated from another language. Most of the time, it corresponds to either old sentence structures, old vocabulary, or simply that some parts can be left implicit
  • [Missing word] -> It happes to everyone, but it seems that someone forgot to put a word here.
  • [Grammar] -> Wrong adjective/noun concordance, or wrong subject/verb concordance, or some other miscelaneous grammatical mistake.
  • [Layout] -> This is a problem with layout
  • [Misspelling] -> A word isn't correctly written. Typos are included here


I'm no profesional editor, just a native Spanish speaker with a reasonable knowledge of English. My methodology might be incorrect, or my explanations might be less than clear. Sorry about that.
  • p1, in the index, "Mundos de jocar"-> "Mundos en los que jugar" (or, if too long, Mundos de juego. The later is in the glossary, so it's not a big deal.) [Interlingua]
  • p1, under "Que es GURPS", “Genérico: GURPS comienza con unas reglas simples, y va añadiendo más hasta el nivel de detalle opcional que quieras." -> “Genérico. GURPS comienza con unas reglas simples, y va añadiendo más, opcionales, hasta el nivel de detalle que quieras." [Sentence]
  • p1, under "Que es GURPS", "para garabatear." -> Either remove it, leaving it implicit, or change it to "para tomar notas." "Para garabatear" would means something akin as "to scribble". My recomendation is to leave it implicit[Style]
  • p1, under "Que es GURPS", Herramienta para iniciar a jugadores. -> This is indented and capitalized like it was a new paragraph, when in fact it continues the sentence above [Layout]
  • p3, under "disputas continuadas", "La de cada intento, en tiempo de juego, depende de la actividad y del juicio del DJ." -> "La duracion de cada intento, en tiempo de juego, depende de la actividad y del juicio del DJ." [Missing word]
  • p4, under "Tabla de Reacción", "pública humillación" -> "humillación publica" [Style]
  • p4, under "Table de Reacción", "una suplicas vitales" -> "unas suplicas vitales" [Grammar]
  • p5, under "Personajes", "quieress" -> "quieres" [Misspelling]
  • p5. under "Puntos de Personaje", "por ejemplo, -75 puntos en un juego de 150 puntos" -> "por ejemplo, -75 puntos en una partida de 150 puntos" [Style]
  • p5, under "Atributos Basicos", "Una puntuación de 10 en un atributo cuesta nada" -> "Una puntuación de 10 en un atributo no cuesta nada" [Missing word]
  • p5, under "Atributos Basicos", "El DJ puede prohibir puntuaciones por debajo de 8 a aventureros en activo." -> "El DJ puede prohibir puntuaciones por debajo de 8 para aventureros en activo. [Mistranslation]
  • p6, under "Fuerza (FZ)", "una FZ elevada permite absorber y distribuir el daño en combate cuerpo a cuerpo." -> "una FZ elevada permite absorber y infligir daño en combate cuerpo a cuerpo." "distribuir" most common meanings are "to spread" (as in spreading butter over bread) and "to distribute" (as in distributing mail) [Mistranslation]
  • p6, "Basic Levation" textbox [Interlingua]
  • p6, "Manetate" textbox [Interlingua]
  • p6, under "Fuerza", "La Fuerza es menos limitada" -> "La Fuerza esta menos limitada"[Mistranslation]
  • p7, under "Características Secundarias", "Puntos de Impacto (PI)" -> "Puntos de Vida (PV)". This sounds like a babelfish translation. It means "impact points". D&D and clones have used "Puntos de Golpe" that is a literal translation of "hit Points", but most other RPG systems use "Puntos de Vida" [Mistranslation]
  • p7, under "Características Secundarias", "Esquivar: Tu defensa Esquivar" -> "Esquiva: Tu Esquiva" [Style]
  • p7, "Basic Damno (Dam)" textbox [Interlingua]
  • p7, under "Imagen y aspecto", "Odiosos Hábitos Personales" ->This one is sort of borderline. IIRC 3rd ed used "Hábitos Personales Molestos", and either "Hábitos Personales Desagradables" or "Hábitos Personales Odiosos" would also work. My recomendation is "Hábitos Personales Molestos". The only advantage of the current translation is that it matches the abreviation of the original english term (OPH)[Style]
  • p8, under "Imagen y Aspecto", "Odiosos Hábitos Personales", see the above note
  • p8, under "Imagen y Aspecto", "Hábito Personal Odioso (HPO)" -> If "Odioso Hábito Personal" is maintained, then this one should be "Odioso Hábito Personal (OPH)". If "Hábitos Personales Molestos" is used, then it should be "Hábito Personal Molesto (HPM)"; if "Hábitos Personales Desagradables" is used, then it should be "Hábito Personal Desagradable".
  • p9. under "Riqueza e influencia", "soloe 1/2" -> "solo de 1/2" [Missing Word]
  • p9, under "Prestigio", "Tu lugar de reconocimiento en la sociedad es diferente de tu fama y fortuna." -> "Tu lugar formalmente reconocido en la sociedad es diferente de tu fama y fortuna." [Style]
  • p9, under "Prestigio", "hombre de la calle" -> "indigente" ("Hombre de la calle", by paralelism with "Mujer de la calle" could be interpreted as "male prostitute") [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Lista de Ventajas", "Caída Reducida" -> This matches the effect of the advantage, and is correct in itself. 3rd ed uses "Caida de Gato", that is mainly a literal translation. It, however, has the right connotations and any native Spanish speaker will understand it instantly. Either could work, and my personal preference matches the 3er ed translation [Style]
  • p10, under "Lista de Ventajas", "Defensas Intensas" -> "Defensas Mejoradas" Intenso means Intense, and while it might appear in a dictionary as a translation of Enhanced, it's not how most people will read it[Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Defensas Intensas", "Escudar Intensificado" -> "Bloqueo Mejorado" Escudar means to shield someone or something, as it's first aception, and as such it's going to be understood. Escudar as Block is incredibply archaic. [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Escudar Intensificado", "Escudar" -> "Bloqueo" [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Defensas Intensas", "Esquivar Intensificado" -> "Esquiva Mejorada" [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "Esquitar Intensificado", "tu puntuación de Esquivar" -> "tu puntuación de Esquiva" [Style]
  • p10, under "Defensas Intensas", "Parar Intensificado" -> "Parada Mejorada" [Mistranslation]
  • p10, under "parar Intensificado", "Tienes un +1 a Parar."-> "Tienes un +1 a tus Paradas."
  • p10, under "Difícil de Matar", "colapsas" -> Either "sufres un colapso", or if space is a premium, "caes" [Mistranslation]
  • p11. under "Saltador", "–o ta cerca como sea posible" ->"–o tan cerca como sea posible" [Misspelling]
  • p11, under "Lista de Ventajas", "Sin Miedo" -> "Valor". Replace the advantage name in the folloing paragraph too [Style]
  • p11, under "Talentos", "Artificiero" -> "Artífice". "Artificiero" is someone who is skilled in the handling of explosives [Mistranslation]
  • p11, under "Talentos", "Sutil Operador" -> "Labia" This one is hard to translate, but this is the most appropriate word. [Style]
  • p12, under "Desventajas", "tirada de autodominio" -> "tirada de autocontrol" Both are correct, but autocontrol is a term used in everyday speech, and autodominio isn't. Also, it is refered as Tirada de Autocontrol in the specific disadvantages[style]
This is what I have so far. I'll add more as I continue to thoroughly review the PDF
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Last edited by Kuroshima; 12-25-2008 at 05:15 AM. Reason: Added errata that I didn't notive.
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Old 12-25-2008, 02:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almafeta
That would be Interlingua. I translated GURPS Lite to Interlingua... Ironically, I was flamed elsewhere on the net for not knowing Interlingua because twice in GURPS Lite[IA], I used the Spanish 'mas' by mistake instead of proper Interlingua 'plus'.

(...)

I was going to volunteer to translate GURPS Lite[ES] but was afraid of putting too much on my plate again. (...)
I missed that incident. You know: in this world, few things are easier than destructive criticism.
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
First, I'm native Spanish speaker
Me too. Like you, this concerns me in a degree. I didn't know this new version, so I just downloaded GURPS Lite 4e (Spanish).

"Wow!" (after glancing it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
It would surprise me a lot to find out that the man who translated GURPS Lite to Spanish - who is himself Spanish - got the languages mixed up. Can you tell us why you think this is partly in Italian?
It is surprising, but actually he did that.
...Or something really close to that: it looks as Portuguese or maybe Italian (I don't know these languages). Kuroshima's example is true: the text he quoted here isn't Spanish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima
This is not a full review of the mistakes in GURPS Lite Spanish Edition: (...)
This is not Spanish. It feels like Italian or Portuguese. This happens in most (or all, I didn't to a through checking) the text boxes.

Now, it's not the only problem, just the most visible one
Cerrtainly. While there are some things better translated than in the earlier edition (IMHO), due this mess you are demonstrating here the current version of GURPS Lite 4e (Spanish) can be hurting GURPS regarding Spanish-speaking people.

Honest. Maybe it could be fixed.
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Old 12-20-2008, 01:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

I have meta-question.

Spanish, as I understand it, is a pretty diverse language. I recall from college classes that there's a formal castillian variety, and a dialect (if that is the word) associated with Latin American.

So . . . when a work is translated, is there a preferred dialect?

Spanish speakers would know this far better than I, but could some of the Italian and Portuguese words be due to the use of a more European flavored dialetc?


Just curious here!
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Translation problems in new GURPS Lite Spanish

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
I have meta-question.

Spanish, as I understand it, is a pretty diverse language. I recall from college classes that there's a formal castillian variety, and a dialect (if that is the word) associated with Latin American.
It's true that the Spanish that is spoken in Latin America is a different dialect from the one spoken in Spain, but it's mostly because the one spoken in Latin America uses a slightly different vocabulary (Mostly using worlds and constructions that are out of fashion in Spain) and a very different accent. It can be really hard to understand (but then some English accents are quite "special") for a Spaniard like me, at least at the beginning (For comparison, imagine someone speaking to you in shakespearian English).
Quote:
So . . . when a work is translated, is there a preferred dialect?
International standard Spanish, RAE (Real Academia de la lengua Española) definition. That is, the most aseptic, neutral Spanish. At least it's for me, but in written form, it's not that different from any other kind of Spanish.
Quote:
Spanish speakers would know this far better than I, but could some of the Italian and Portuguese words be due to the use of a more European flavored dialetc?

Just curious here!
Nope, it is not. Trust me on this. It's like someone didn't have enough time to meet a deadline, and put parts of another translation to try to make it look like he translated it.
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