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Old 06-11-2017, 05:02 AM   #1
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Default Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

As the title suggests, I'd like some help with the Ritual/Path magic. Namely the one in monster hunters 1.

I like the way this system works. I think. But there are some things that I don't quite understand...

For example. Say the regular magic spell, pain. It's resisted by an HT roll.

How is this done in Ritual/Path? I don't remember seeing anything in there anywhere...

Also how does the modifiers work? Do you use all applicable modifiers? Or do you only use the ones that you want to use? I am confused.

I would also like some examples. Preferably starting simple, and working to more complicated that way I can try and reverse engineer how it works.

Like for instance, a group heal for anyone within say 3 yards for say 2d HP. What modifiers would you use. Would you use the one referring to weight?

I don't understand at all even where to begin.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:52 AM   #2
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
Like for instance, a group heal for anyone within say 3 yards for say 2d HP. What modifiers would you use. Would you use the one referring to weight?
Things may have changed a bit since MH1 (Ritual Path Magic - RPM - now has its own book that, as I understand it, goes into more depth than the original system as presented in MH1 - I have the RPM book, but nothing from the MH line), but in this case:

Lesser* Restore Body (4) + Healing, 2d (4) + Area Effect, 3 yard radius (3) + Subject Weight, 300 lb (3). Total energy is 14.

For Subject Weight, this is needed any time you are directly affecting someone's body or a physical object, but not otherwise. With Area Effect, you only need to pay for the Subject Weight of the heaviest target - the above spell will affect anyone within 3 yards that weighs 300 lb or less. If you don't want to heal enemies in the area, you'll need to pay extra energy to make an exception.

A thread that may help you is here, where people post worked-out RPM rituals for help/discussion. That should give you a good idea on how RPM rituals are designed, and how they work.

*Lesser/Greater is determined based on how much HP is restored, and 2d falls under the threshold at TL8. Personally, as an area effect is much more world-bending than a single target - the latter is basically just ultra-quick First Aid - I'd increase this to Greater, but that's a decision for the GM. If you agree that this should be Greater, the above spell instead costs 42 energy, due to the x3 multiplier for having a single Greater Effect.
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Old 06-11-2017, 10:28 AM   #3
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
Do you use all applicable modifiers? Or do you only use the ones that you want to use?
The two are the same thing. The modifiers you want to use to get your desired effect are the ones that are applicable.

That is, they're part of a spell design system. If you want to have an Area Effect, Range further than touch, Duration longer than instantaneous, affect large objects (Weight), etc., then you need to pay for the appropriate modifiers to match your desired effect. RPM does _not_ start with the spells in GURPS Magic as a default baseline that you then change with the modifiers. In this sense, it's its own system. The "default" values for the modifiers don't come from Magic spells. They're the 0-point values in the table (Momentary duration, 10 lbs weight, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM p15
Every spell must be defined clearly; e.g., “Using Lesser Strengthen Mind, everyone within four yards of me at the time that I cast the spell will gain Per+2 for the next hour.” That definition includes the spell effect (Lesser Strengthen Mind) and all of the applicable modifiers (Area of Effect, Range, Altered Traits, and Duration).
...
The energy requirement for a ritual depends on the spell effect(s) and any applicable modifiers.
To create a spell similar to Magic's Pain, I'd use Lesser Control Body and Bestows a Penalty (-3) to a Broad range of skills. The Magic spell affects the subject for the next second. I'm willing to count that as "instantaneous", since the next level up is "10 minutes". Control Body is specifically noted as being appropriate for "irritating or incapacitating conditions".

Lesser or Greater depends on how natural and believable the result is. The split here is really dependent on your setting and genre. RPM was originally created for Monster Hunters, so it's most at home in a secret magic wainscot setting. Thus, RPM rules put some emphasis on subtle magic that could have been normal, as opposed to flashy magic that's clearly not normal (fireballs). It's reminiscent of Mage: the Ascension and that setting's distinction between "coincidental" and "vulgar" magic. If you're using RPM in a D&D game, you might be throwing flashy magic around all the time. And depending on what the GM wants, that might not even be Greater magic because "magic is natural; everybody does it". (Though at some point balance starts to demand that those fireballs cost a lot of energy.)

The RPM book has a grimoire of 50+ example spells (p38 - 51). There have been a number of past threads collecting RPM rituals, or debating which path(s) and Lesser/Greater should apply to build particular spell effects.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:50 PM   #4
Ghostdancer
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
As the title suggests, I'd like some help with the Ritual/Path magic. Namely the one in monster hunters 1.
Pro Tip: It's "Ritual Path Magic" Ritual/Path magic could be contrived as Path/Book magic (which it is often conflated for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
For example. Say the regular magic spell, pain. It's resisted by an HT roll.

How is this done in Ritual/Path? I don't remember seeing anything in there anywhere...
It's resisted with the higher of HT or Will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
Also how does the modifiers work? Do you use all applicable modifiers? Or do you only use the ones that you want to use? I am confused.
You only add modifiers you need and some spells don't need them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
I would also like some examples. Preferably starting simple, and working to more complicated that way I can try and reverse engineer how it works.
Again, see my blog. I have a lot of spells there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
Like for instance, a group heal for anyone within say 3 yards for say 2d HP. What modifiers would you use. Would you use the one referring to weight?
You'd need Healing, Subject Weight (the highest weight of any subject affected, not the combined weight), and Area Effect. Plus a Restore effect with an appropriate Path (e.g., Restore Body for a group of humans).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
I don't understand at all even where to begin.
If you go to my blog and look at the ritual path magic tag you'll find a LOT of entries that may be helpful.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:24 AM   #5
Jaware
 
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Alight friends. I went and bought the book. I've read it pretty much over to cover and I love it.

I only have two questions.

My concern is is there a way to make the recipient of the spell resist at a lower number? Perhaps by paying more energy into the spell? I'm not quite sure if I skipped it, but I don't think I did. Any thoughts?

My next question, is how does one raise their effective path skill with the limit above 12? I know Margery and such raises it. But how does one cast at say a 14 or a 15 without investing 100+cp into the various base skill+Margery?

For example, it'd be nice to be able to make mana batteries, and charms, and elixirs at a decent skill level along with combat fireballs at a 15 etc.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:22 AM   #6
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
Alight friends. I went and bought the book. I've read it pretty much over to cover and I love it.

I only have two questions.

My concern is is there a way to make the recipient of the spell resist at a lower number? Perhaps by paying more energy into the spell? I'm not quite sure if I skipped it, but I don't think I did. Any thoughts?
IIRC, you can use the Bestow a Penalty modifier to lower their resistance roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
My next question, is how does one raise their effective path skill with the limit above 12? I know Margery and such raises it. But how does one cast at say a 14 or a 15 without investing 100+cp into the various base skill+Margery?

For example, it'd be nice to be able to make mana batteries, and charms, and elixirs at a decent skill level along with combat fireballs at a 15 etc.
I don't think you can get a default over 12 without investing the points. Without training and advantages, you won't be throwing any fireballs without considerable risk and time investment to create charms, what with all the penalties. An effective mage needs the skills and advantages, probably for balance reasons. Grimoires and such can sometimes act as "batteries", but can't be a substitute for real training and talent, I'd say.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

It costs 18 points to raise one Path skill one level. This assumes you have spent 4 points in each of Thaumatology and the Path skill.
Those 18 points get you one rank in each of Thaumatology and the Path skill and one level of Magery.

If you want to increase all of you Path skills it's cheaper to buy IQ and Magery for 30 points.

My counter question would be how much should it cost? Given the huge range of effects that can be achieved with even a single Path it seems appropriately costed. In my experience RPM mages are amazingly effective, sometimes even disruptively so.

There is also equipment and Perks that are spell specific that can be bought for an even more focused spell caster.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #8
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

The RPM skills and Advantages are meant to soak points. There's no point cost for individual spells, after all. So compare to the costs of a set of superpowers or a Modular Ability.

(Also helps to remember that MH was designed as a 400-point game. An RPM mage might not scale down to 250 or 150 or 100 points and still seem like a kick-ass generalist. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; just depends on your game.)
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:16 AM   #9
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
IIRC, you can use the Bestow a Penalty modifier to lower their resistance roll.
I was under the impression that the bestow a bonus/penalty modifier had to be used on a separate spell that pierced the targets defenses so that they would be "under the effects of the -resistance" spells, in order for the other one to actually be used.

Can you use the bestows a penalty in order to make a spell you cast harder to resist if that is part of the spell?



Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
I don't think you can get a default over 12 without investing the points. Without training and advantages, you won't be throwing any fireballs without considerable risk and time investment to create charms, what with all the penalties. An effective mage needs the skills and advantages, probably for balance reasons. Grimoires and such can sometimes act as "batteries", but can't be a substitute for real training and talent, I'd say.
I don't disagree. I don't think it's unbalanced or anything. I was just curious on the best way(and most point effective) way to raise the cap of the various paths.

As for batteries, I was thinking of using the exempt on Ravens and pennies about the ability to make one time use "batteries" for it since my game is only a 150 pt fantasy game.
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:04 AM   #10
ericthered
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Default Re: Need help with some stuff with Ritual/Path magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
My next question, is how does one raise their effective path skill with the limit above 12? I know Margery and such raises it. But how does one cast at say a 14 or a 15 without investing 100+cp into the various base skill+Margery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDaisy View Post
I don't think you can get a default over 12 without investing the points. Without training and advantages, you won't be throwing any fireballs without considerable risk and time investment to create charms, what with all the penalties. An effective mage needs the skills and advantages, probably for balance reasons. Grimoires and such can sometimes act as "batteries", but can't be a substitute for real training and talent, I'd say.
There is a LOT you can do to get around climbing up the RPM ladder 18 points at a time.

Higher Purpose (Tradition) is in the RPM main book, and its expanded even further in pyramid 66. This allows you to cut through level caps for a category of spells, up to a maximum of 3. Very nice.

Ritual mastery can give +2 to any ritual.

If you have safe access to a place of power, that's a huge boost to what you can cast.

Pyramid 66 has specialist talents that raise the cap on paths only for that talent.

Finally, Grimoires CAN be a substitute for skill and training. They make you less than flexible, but in some settings its much easier to find a good book than a good caster. I've actually designed a setting where grimoires are considered indispensable tools and every single mage has them.
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