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Old 02-18-2006, 06:19 PM   #1
chris the cynic
 
Join Date: May 2005
Default Does Lucifer still serve light?

I'm serious here. Lucifer has more or less brought the deepest and darkest aspects of humans and celestials into the spotlight, he's enlightened the entire world with respect to all things that we call dark.

If there is something hidden in darkness he'll bring it into the light. He'll drag it kicking and screaming into the light if needs be and he'll make sure everyone gets a good long look at it.

So it seems to me that he is serving light in a rather twisted way, but if that's the case how does it effect his character? Is there anything he wouldn't do because it would oppose the word?

Is there anything that would be opposing the word?

The things that bring moral darkness often bring intellectual light. Atrocities, for example, teach us a lot about what people are capable of and what drives us. I'm having trouble thinking of anything that doesn't somehow serve light in some interpretation of the word.
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:05 AM   #2
Magicwillnz
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Does Lucifer still serve light? Not really.

Don't forget that Lucifer is trying to drag the entire universe into darkness. He wants to kill the symphony. He hates everything about existance. If he causes inspiration or enlightenment, it was accident or to further his plans. Lucifer wants to crush your hopes and drag you into darkness too... at least, that's my take on him.

Then again, he is a Balseraph, and can justify his actions to himself any way he wants.
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:27 AM   #3
alexondria
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

I've done him difrently in difrent campaigns. The last campain that I ran Lucifer was actualy still working for Heaven- the entire conflict brings progress idea. I haven't compleatly decided what I'm going to do w/ him this time but I can't imagine him having easy to read motives or wanting to destroy the symphony- I could see him wanting to control the symphony. I'm thinking about running him a lot like the Lucifer in the Vertigo series.
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Old 02-19-2006, 09:17 AM   #4
chris the cynic
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicwillnz
Don't forget that Lucifer is trying to drag the entire universe into darkness. He wants to kill the symphony. He hates everything about existance.
I have trouble believing that. In In Nomine at least. It isn't selfish enough. He gains nothing. Ruling a universe of darkness isn't a huge gain. Killing the Symphony achieves nothing, it doesn't help him, ruling the symphony on the other hand ... that is selfish.

Also you say he hates everything about existance, but the materials we have seem to indicate he was happy with his lot before humanity. Odds are there remains something that he likes or he can change into something he likes.
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Old 02-19-2006, 07:14 PM   #5
Lord Carnifex
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

It's not necessarily canon to In Nomine, but...

It can be asserted that Shaitan/Satan, the Adversary of Judaic tradition, is really more of God's quality control. It's his job to continually test Creation, in an attmept to see where it breaks. For the best example, see the story of Job... Satan's not ruining his life out of hatred or malice, but to see if and when Job will lose his faith. That Job turns out to be the Old Testament's most eloquent cynic is just icing on the cake. Furthermore, Satan does this WITH the full acceptance of God.

In fact the Rabbis and Prophets are most insistant on this: all good and all evil flow from God. Nothing is done without His will or assent. Satan gets all of his power and authority to act against the creation from God. Christianinty, of course, has a differnet take on all this, as do Zoastrianism and Islam.
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Old 02-19-2006, 10:13 PM   #6
chris the cynic
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex
It's not necessarily canon to In Nomine, but...

It can be asserted that Shaitan/Satan, the Adversary of Judaic tradition, is really more of God's quality control. It's his job to continually test Creation, in an attmept to see where it breaks. For the best example, see the story of Job... Satan's not ruining his life out of hatred or malice, but to see if and when Job will lose his faith. That Job turns out to be the Old Testament's most eloquent cynic is just icing on the cake. Furthermore, Satan does this WITH the full acceptance of God.
All of the Christians I know who are aware of this fact maintain that, while it's a nice/tedious read, Paradise Lost got it wrong and the fall happened at some point between the Old and New Testaments.

Obviously that belief has no place in In Nomine canon. I guess the belief is that Satan is the Adversary, but of man instead of God. It certainly makes the read more consistent but one has to remember that books were cut from the Torah, and some of those contained a more traditional devil-figure. (Or would you call it more modern? I really don't know which came first.)

Quote:
In fact the Rabbis and Prophets are most insistant on this: all good and all evil flow from God. Nothing is done without His will or assent. Satan gets all of his power and authority to act against the creation from God. Christianinty, of course, has a differnet take on all this, as do Zoastrianism and Islam.
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While I have never read the holy book of the religion I do believe that Islam states that all is as good wills it, evil as well. So that puts them firmly on the, "Evil flows from, or is at least the will of, God," side.

I must confess though I'm not sure how this relates to my question.
(I'm not complaining mind you.)
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Old 02-19-2006, 11:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris the cynic
All of the Christians I know who are aware of this fact maintain that, while it's a nice/tedious read, Paradise Lost got it wrong and the fall happened at some point between the Old and New Testaments.
That is not however a standard Christian doctrine. Milton's version is much closer to the tradtional form of Christianity. Christians generally hold that the Judaic understanding of Satan is incorrect.
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:06 AM   #8
Magicwillnz
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Quote:
I have trouble believing that. In In Nomine at least. It isn't selfish enough. He gains nothing. Ruling a universe of darkness isn't a huge gain. Killing the Symphony achieves nothing, it doesn't help him, ruling the symphony on the other hand ... that is selfish.
Lucifer in my opinion is not any kind of human sort of evil. Like all Balseraphs he wants to enforce his will on the Symphony so that he's the one dictating truth. He doesn't need to "rule" over anything, once everything is gone only his will exists, pure and uninterrupted. He doesn't like Hell or other Demons either, since it's not an extension of his Will.

Lucifer doesn't want a "world" of darkness, he wants ONLY darkness, where he can be alone with his selfish Will. Lucifer is essentially committing a reverse suicide, removing himself from the universe by destroying it, simply because it doesn't fit in with his selfish worldview. Lucifer is committing the SUPREME act of selfishness.

As for whether Lucifer is a tool of God, he could very well be, but I doubt he is consciously serving God.
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:02 PM   #9
mondu_the_fat
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicwillnz
Lucifer doesn't want a "world" of darkness, he wants ONLY darkness, where he can be alone with his selfish Will. Lucifer is essentially committing a reverse suicide, removing himself from the universe by destroying it, simply because it doesn't fit in with his selfish worldview. Lucifer is committing the SUPREME act of selfishness.
That seems to fit IN Malphas more than it fits Lucifer.

My view of Lucifer in IN is that he's a demon who wants to rule, but still recognizes that God could stomp him flat if He really wanted to. Being in that situation and being a Balseraph, he tells himself that he's fighting for the right to self-rule.

There are clues that point that he wants to rule instead of simply destroy. Belial's write-up mentions that Lucifer doesn't want a nuclear holocaust. The case of Legion and the plague (IIRC) are other examples that show that he wants humans left over to push around.

Whether he unwittingly serves God is up to debate. Certainly, there is some evidence to that. The write up on Yves and Chronos from Heaven and Hell seem to indicate that God simply is. That is, not good and evil as humans would see it, but someone who is also learning as the symphony evolves. In that case Lucifer _would_ be merely a part of this learning process.
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:24 AM   #10
Methariel
 
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Default Re: Does Lucifer still serve light?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat
That seems to fit IN Malphas more than it fits Lucifer.
Well, I don't think so. Malphas wants isolation of everything, not nonexistence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat
There are clues that point that he wants to rule instead of simply destroy. Belial's write-up mentions that Lucifer doesn't want a nuclear holocaust. The case of Legion and the plague (IIRC) are other examples that show that he wants humans left over to push around.
Maybe he just doesn't want a nuclear holocaust because there'd be something that survived it (cockroaches, for example, are said to survive such catastrophes). Perhaps he's still looking for the fool-proof way to annihilate the Symphony. The whole Symphony (every star, planet, bit of dust, animal, human, angel, etc.).
I don't think that he needs some reasonable cause for this. Sometimes people do things because they're angry that will not only harm others, but themselves, too. Think of a child that destroys some toy just because she has to share it with another.
So the "total darkness"-approach isn't to be dismissed, in my opinion.
But Glamourweaver's idea is also very striking...
Hm, it seems that Lucifer's plans, motives and aims are quite...ineffable.
And I like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat
The write up on Yves and Chronos from Heaven and Hell seem to indicate that God simply is. That is, not good and evil as humans would see it, but someone who is also learning as the symphony evolves.
That brings a quote to my mind. I just heard it the other day. I think it's from the novel "Josef und seine Brüder" by Heinrich Mann (a German author). It translates to this:
"God is not Good. God is everything. And He is holy."
(I hope I quoted correctly.)

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