Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation

callen · 01-21-2016, 04:17 AM

We have an odd situation bringing up lots of questions, all based around Reversed Grip. We're having a lot of trouble coming up with agreement and can't find much here to help. I'd love to hear if there is any consensus on any of these.

The situation is that player 1 and player 2 are in a cage that can sway. The cage is 1 yard across, so basically 1 hex. It is 3 yards tall, though. Player 1 has SM-2 and has a SM-2 halberd (using Low Tech Companion 2). Player 2 has SM0.

Non-issues

Bad Footing - We are fine here, both players accepting it.
Relative SM - We're using relative SM and are fine here.

Issues

Can Reversed Grip (MA p.111-112) be used with the Close Combat Technique's (MA p.69) listed penalties? Player 1 argues that the listed penalties apply. Since the weapon has reach 2, it becomes reach 1 for all purposes, and all purposes include this. So there is a -4 penalty. Player 2 notes that the technique says "All of this assumes a normal grip" and "See Reversed Grip (pp. 111-112) for an alternative." It is not a normal grip, so these rules (for which "all" has been used) don't apply. Also, combining them is not what "alternative" means. Meanwhile, Kromm used the same "alternative" here http://forums.sjgames.com/show...+combat+technique%22 to explain that Armed Grapple does not use these penalties, and Kromm also comments on not wasting space which would seem to be the case if those comments within the Technique are not valid. However, both players agree that shortening the reach should not make it harder to hit a nearer target, so we can get past the rules disagreement and accept a -4 penalty, but the question about whether there is consensus on this is still there.
The cage is much smaller than the weapon (except perhaps if player 1 is trying to stab player 2's feet). As it is a cage, there is some space between bars. That changes it from nearly impossible to even hold the halberd to possible, with the back half (the weapon itself is measured as 2 hexes since it's reach 2) of the haft extending outside the cage. That means the bars will interfere considerably with the halberd's use. Player 2 cites Underground Adventures combined with the reach 1 for all purposes to suggest -4 is the appropriate penalty for a thrust. Player 1 says the SM-2 character is very small and so has lots of room to maneuver so there should be no penalty. Player 2 replies that that is why the penalty is much smaller than it would be for a SM0 halberd but that the SM-2 halberd is still long enough that half of it will be outside the cage no matter how little the SM-2 character is; it's like a SM0 character in a 2-hex by 2-hex space with a halberd.
Can the SM-2 character even wield the SM-2 halberd in Reversed Grip? Player 1 cites Reversed Grip and notes the reach is 2. Player 2 points out that relative to the SM-2 character the halberd is just as long as a reach 3 halberd for a SM0 person and that none of its unbalanced notes change, saying this seems to be using a loophole because LTC2 did not specifically comment on Reversed Grip. Player 2 also points out that this means it is impossible for SM+7 and bigger creatures to use Reversed Grip at all because even their C weapons become reach 3, and small SM creatures can use absurdly long weapons relative to their own size with Reversed Grip. Player 2 suggests the LTC2 rule should also apply to Reversed Grip, so the character should be able to reverse the grip on a weapon of reach 2x0.6=1.2 or smaller.
Completely related to the above point, player 1 points out that the SM-2 character should be able to use Reversed Grip with a SM0 dueling balberd since it has reach 2, and since that dueling halberd is bigger than the SM-2 halberd the SM-2 halberd should be useable with Reversed Grip. Player 2 cites "its length will be awkward" from LTC2 along with Reversed Grip's "Longer weapons are too awkward to reverse" to point out that the intent is that it is not possible for the SM-2 character to use Reversed Grip with a SM0 dueling halberd.

I think everyone is doing a good job referencing things and making points, but it's not very clear in the rules. As this is between two players, it's that much more contentious. The GM is listening to the debate openly. But it would be helpful if there is any accepted consensus on any of this. Or maybe even just more opinions from others who know their GURPS rules well. Thanks for any help!!!

01-21-2016, 04:17 AM	#1
callen Join Date: Jun 2007	SM-2 Reversed-Grip Situation We have an odd situation bringing up lots of questions, all based around Reversed Grip. We're having a lot of trouble coming up with agreement and can't find much here to help. I'd love to hear if there is any consensus on any of these. The situation is that player 1 and player 2 are in a cage that can sway. The cage is 1 yard across, so basically 1 hex. It is 3 yards tall, though. Player 1 has SM-2 and has a SM-2 halberd (using Low Tech Companion 2). Player 2 has SM0. Non-issues Bad Footing - We are fine here, both players accepting it. Relative SM - We're using relative SM and are fine here. Issues Can Reversed Grip (MA p.111-112) be used with the Close Combat Technique's (MA p.69) listed penalties? Player 1 argues that the listed penalties apply. Since the weapon has reach 2, it becomes reach 1 for all purposes, and all purposes include this. So there is a -4 penalty. Player 2 notes that the technique says "All of this assumes a normal grip" and "See Reversed Grip (pp. 111-112) for an alternative." It is not a normal grip, so these rules (for which "all" has been used) don't apply. Also, combining them is not what "alternative" means. Meanwhile, Kromm used the same "alternative" here http://forums.sjgames.com/show...+combat+technique%22 to explain that Armed Grapple does not use these penalties, and Kromm also comments on not wasting space which would seem to be the case if those comments within the Technique are not valid. However, both players agree that shortening the reach should not make it harder to hit a nearer target, so we can get past the rules disagreement and accept a -4 penalty, but the question about whether there is consensus on this is still there. The cage is much smaller than the weapon (except perhaps if player 1 is trying to stab player 2's feet). As it is a cage, there is some space between bars. That changes it from nearly impossible to even hold the halberd to possible, with the back half (the weapon itself is measured as 2 hexes since it's reach 2) of the haft extending outside the cage. That means the bars will interfere considerably with the halberd's use. Player 2 cites Underground Adventures combined with the reach 1 for all purposes to suggest -4 is the appropriate penalty for a thrust. Player 1 says the SM-2 character is very small and so has lots of room to maneuver so there should be no penalty. Player 2 replies that that is why the penalty is much smaller than it would be for a SM0 halberd but that the SM-2 halberd is still long enough that half of it will be outside the cage no matter how little the SM-2 character is; it's like a SM0 character in a 2-hex by 2-hex space with a halberd. Can the SM-2 character even wield the SM-2 halberd in Reversed Grip? Player 1 cites Reversed Grip and notes the reach is 2. Player 2 points out that relative to the SM-2 character the halberd is just as long as a reach 3 halberd for a SM0 person and that none of its unbalanced notes change, saying this seems to be using a loophole because LTC2 did not specifically comment on Reversed Grip. Player 2 also points out that this means it is impossible for SM+7 and bigger creatures to use Reversed Grip at all because even their C weapons become reach 3, and small SM creatures can use absurdly long weapons relative to their own size with Reversed Grip. Player 2 suggests the LTC2 rule should also apply to Reversed Grip, so the character should be able to reverse the grip on a weapon of reach 2x0.6=1.2 or smaller. Completely related to the above point, player 1 points out that the SM-2 character should be able to use Reversed Grip with a SM0 dueling balberd since it has reach 2, and since that dueling halberd is bigger than the SM-2 halberd the SM-2 halberd should be useable with Reversed Grip. Player 2 cites "its length will be awkward" from LTC2 along with Reversed Grip's "Longer weapons are too awkward to reverse" to point out that the intent is that it is not possible for the SM-2 character to use Reversed Grip with a SM0 dueling halberd. I think everyone is doing a good job referencing things and making points, but it's not very clear in the rules. As this is between two players, it's that much more contentious. The GM is listening to the debate openly. But it would be helpful if there is any accepted consensus on any of this. Or maybe even just more opinions from others who know their GURPS rules well. Thanks for any help!!!