[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Myrion

I still think that it's at least a bit weird to design classes such that they'll be useless most of the time (or unless you pick one specific way to optimize them)

There really are many types of fun, and there really are players who derive most of their fun from taking a "useless" archetype and making it soar. This is yet another facet of the old-school dungeon-crawl genre that I wanted to emulate. I am ready to be slapped for it . . . it isn't everybody's cup of tea. ;)

Originally Posted by Myrion

Oh yeah, and just to be clear - what quirky combat rule that only applies to scouts are you referring to, Kromm?

Pretty much everything under Heroic Archer, but quick-shooting bows in particular. In GURPS, it's an option for all. In the DFRPG, it's strictly a scout thing. But it involves a lot of rolls (Fast Draw, Bow at -3 or -1, and then Bow at -3 or -1 again . . . possibly twice per turn, with Extra Attack), not to mention the either/or add Accuracy/ignore Bulk effect. It's a little harder to internalize than "I hit it!"

Originally Posted by tbone

It's interesting that your A-List mirrors the original D&D foursome: cleric, fighter, magic-user, thief.

I suppose it's possible that those are four rather arbitrary roles, and the genre has shaped itself over the decades to keep them at the forefront.

I think that's half of it. You'd be hard-pressed to find a first-gen FRPG that didn't have at least the warrior-wizard-rogue triad, and the division of wizard into cleric and magic-user arrived fairly early on. This has had an effect on all FRPGs since, and I'm sure their plots and expectations have evolved to match – a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

Originally Posted by tbone

But I suspect, instead, that Gygax and friends perceived from the start that those four make up something special.

Also that.

The division has military precedent: On a special-ops team, the "weapons" guy (fighter) handles most of the heavy hitting; the "engineer" (thief) disarms and defuses, and occasionally sets, mines and booby traps; the "medic" (cleric) patches people up; and the "communications" specialist (magic-user) calls in air/artillery strikes, and handles high-tech sensors and other gizmos nobody else quite gets. The "command" role isn't associated with a fantasy archetype because most FRPG parties are nonhierarchical; if there's a leader, that person is chosen on the meta-game level. The "intelligence" role is filled by treasure maps, hired sages, and cloaked strangers in taverns in old-school games, but inasmuch as there are in-game abilities, it's shared among the thief (who spies), cleric (who can ask the gods for information), and magic-user (who can seek things with magic).

Originally Posted by martinl

And this is the reason that so many modern dungeon crawling games significantly upped the combat capabilities of the "Rogue." The DF thief is unarguably old school, but it is a part of old school that folks in general have moved away from.

The thief starts out with DX 15, and can right out of the gate add more DX for skill; Expert Backstabbing and Weapon Master (Knives) for damage; Basic Speed, Combat Reflexes, and Enhanced Dodge for defense; and Ambidexterity for "dual-wielding." If that's the build you want, go for it! With DX 15, even a few points from quirks can give good weapon skill. Between the advantage allowance and points from quirks, a starting backstabber could have Expert Backstabbing 5, Weapon Master (Knives), Main-Gauche-16, and a couple of fine, balanced long knives.

Another subtlety, often missed, is that those final 7 points can be spent "to improve any previous skill." This is an option that bards, clerics, druids, and wizards don't get; it positions thieves between casters and true warriors in terms of combat skill. If you want a warrior-thief, spend those 7 points to be really good at fighting. You could easily have even higher Main-Gauche in my previous example, or perhaps merge those points with quirk points and decide you're an archer with Bow-17, Fast-Draw (Arrow)-15, a composite bow, and a quiver full of fine, balanced arrows.

So I think one can go the route of a killer, if one wants. But that's just one option. I wanted to leave in the option of the pure, Bilbo-inspired burglar and similar combat-avoidant sneaks. The thief with enhanced Per and Basic Move, Night Vision, Cartography, Lip Reading, and Observation, and amped-up Stealth is a role some gamers like, too: "Yeah, so while you were resting I scouted the rest of the dungeon real quick. I found all the sentries and lip-read the passwords. Oh, here's the map. The fighting is up to you, but I set some traps here and here on the map . . . lure the bad guys there."