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Skarg · 05-27-2019, 11:13 AM

I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other.

The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent".

ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules.

The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack.

If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each.

So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions:

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?

Answers:
(a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake.
(c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit.

Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons

(a) What DX- on their second attack?
(b) Any DX- on their first attack?
(c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger?
(d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons?
(e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)?

(a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack).
(c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage.
(e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger.

However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about.

That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description.

Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks.

And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each.

However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage.

As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX.

How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.

05-27-2019, 11:13 AM	#10
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Two Weapons + Spike Shield? I think the rules are spread between three (or more?) places and are not entirely consistent with each other. The Two Weapons talent (on ITL 41) is the most liberal in suggesting anyone can fight with two weapons if they have not only a main gauche but also they could use an ordinary dagger in the left hand, or a spike shield. However it is also more restrictive than Left-Hand Weapons on ITL 111 in saying that a figure who wants to fight with two full weapons "must have this talent". ITL 107 is the most restrictive, saying humanoid figures without Two Weapons can only make one attack. But I think it can be considered overruled by more specific rules. The Left-Hand Weapons rule on ITL 111 I take to be more specific and therefore expands on/overrules ITL 107, but it only mentions main gauche and the Two Weapons talent, and adds that anyone can try to fight as in the Two Weapons talent but at -6 on each attack. If I were only using the RAW Legacy Edition rules, I would say that the Two Weapons description is the most specific and detailed and overrides all the other rules except the part of ITL 111 which specifically elaborates on Two Weapons saying you actually can try to use two weapons but at -6 on each. So to Legacy-RAW answer your questions: Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and spike shield, sword and shield talents but not two weapons (a) What DX- on their second attack? (b) Any DX- on their first attack? (c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the spike shield? (d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? Answers: (a)(b) They don't get a second attack. SJ left that in Legacy Edition by mistake. (c)(d) 1 damage stopped as usual for a Spike Shield. They can Defend with it if they want for enemy 4/DX to hit. Person with AdjDX 12, broadsword and dagger, sword talent but not two weapons (a) What DX- on their second attack? (b) Any DX- on their first attack? (c) How much damage stopped if they parry with the dagger? (d) How much damage stopped if they parry with both weapons? (e) Is a dagger here exactly the same as a main gauche, or slightly different (since Main Gauche is 'listed' as a one point shield)? (a)(b) GM discretion. I would either say there is no 2nd attack, or they can attack as with a main-gauche attack (-0 for the first attack, -4 with the second attack). (c)(d) None. Only an actual main-gauche or Two Weapons talent stops damage. (e) No, since the 1980 Advanced rules, a main gauche has always cost twice as much and weighed more than a dagger. However, what I would tend to do is also consult the original 1980 Advanced rules to get more info on what Steve changed in the Legacy Edition, because doing so gives me options and also shows what the Two Weapons bit about Spike Shields is talking about. That is, if you look at the original ITL or Advanced Melee weapon tables, you will find that the notes on Spike Shield read "If used as 2nd weapon, does 1 - 2 damage. DX -4." Aha! Now, since that note changed in Legacy Edition to "If used in shield rush, does 1d-2 damage." it seems to me that Steve probably was trying to edit out the ability to get a second attack from a spike shield (probably for simplicity), but missed the reference inside the Two Weapons talent description. Also looking at Advanced Melee for how main gauche and a dagger in the left hand work, the situation is also quite different, and also Steve was trying to simplify it for Legacy Edition. In Advanced Melee, a figure attacking with a sword and a main gauche has -4 DX on both attacks. And in Advanced Melee, you can use two daggers in HTH, at -4 each. However I don't see an elaboration on using a weapon and ordinary dagger in Advanced Melee - Two Weapons has the same language saying it's possible, but not what the mechanics are. The original weapon table does mention a section titled Combat with Daggers, but I think that's the section in AM with the HTH damage table, which I infer got renamed to "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club", which only talks about HTH damage. As for your specific questions in the light of Advanced Melee, I would tend to allow both spike shields and normal daggers to do a second attack (normal daggers just don't stop any damage), but I would choose to play it as in Advanced Melee, where doing so puts both attacks at -4 DX. How I would actually play would be to re-hash my favorite of the original and new rules, and/or invent how I want to play.