SKARG I am glad we have agreed on that cornerstone first, as all to often I read long detailed discussions here about rule-variations, and in the end - because those discussing a rule did not first agree on the exact rule in question, b) state the exact problem with the rule -
you stated both of these perfectly - and c) come to an mutual agreement about where everyone is philosophically first - the whole conversation just ends up as so much fruitless typing, which goes nowhere towards a real solution.
NOW that we are sure we are on the same page, and we are actually seeing things through the same microscope, we can dig in. ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg
Here's roughly what we thought:[/B]
IQ for its own sake usually is not worth anything unless Disbelieving is involved, or someone has a reason to make an important IQ roll. For the most part it has no effect so no effect on TV. (If someone somehow uses IQ to dominate someone, then that's a situation modifier and/or probably something to reward with EP anyway.)
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Agreed that "IQ for it's own sake is usually not worth very much". Not many high-IQ NPC Jewelers or Latin Scholars will normally make for formidable melee opponents; therefore I will ask if we can consider a stated qualifier on IQ, such as:
"The IQ Attribute as a stated numerical value is only worth considering for Combat EP Value inasmuch as the actual IQ Attribute value only reflects the POTENTIAL for containing a number of valuable combat talents, which WILL effect the Combat EP Value; but has no direct contributing value of its own; and has no bearing on the final Combat EP Value otherwise."?
Additionally, can we hold-off on the topic of Disbelieving until we - later down the road - bring-in the topic of magic and IQ, and keep our focus tight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg
Plain weapon talents (sword, ax/mace, etc) - the normal baseline expectation for a fighter, so it adjusts the value by zero. If someone DOESN'T have the talent for their weapon, the consequence is -4 DX, so that's worth the TV for that, i.e. -4 TV, but it's not about the talent, it's about the adjDX. TV is ST + adjDX + modifiers.
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There are assumptions and factors here, along with a presumed alteration to the existing Combat EP Valuation method provided by TFT:ITL, which I feel should not be included AT THIS TIME in the dialog. Primarily, as we have not fully defined our own baseline yet; and we should refrain from projecting the effect on the sum as a net modifier at this point-in-time - Agreed?
Although I have read your whole post in it's entirety, I would like to ask if we can truncate and hold the rest in reserve, so that we can keep the conversation on a point-by-point basis, as we seek out the baseline.
I see where you are heading and with many other prospective rules, while you offer sound rational why you feel a specific talent should be worth X, and another talent is worth Y, I would like to explore another route which may also be available to us in our endeavor.
If you have read my other posts regarding my general philosophy on altering the TFT rules, or creating enhancements to those rules, you know that I am a staunch adherent to working outwards from the established rules as a base, and naturally growing outwards from there - rather than trying to superimpose an external rules-set into a per-existing TFT rule base.
I want to reiterate, my highest goal is not to impose my own ideas into the system, but rather to create enhancements to the existing TFT rules, and introducing as little alien material as possible,
specifically to preserve, while creating a pastiche of the original rules-set laid-down by SJ.
Again, withholding discussion of what and why your rules feel a specific talent is worth what it is to the Combat EP Value,
can we first look at the values that the TFT:ITL Talents ALREADY offer us as canonical values?
Following that philosophy, the existing TFT Talent rules already inform us of specific values for each and every combat talent available; AND, if we methodically apply those same values - without arbitrary alteration - to the existing Combat EP Value, we would automatically generate the samples as shown below:
As we agree: IQ by itself offers no direct inherent value to the Combat EP Value; therefore, a "No Combat Talent" figure would be rendered as:
ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8
NO COMBAT TALENTS
Combat EP Value: 24
If we give the same figure the knife talent - reflecting the most base degree of weapon skill and proficiency - the figure would be rendered as:
ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8
KNIFE (1)
Combat EP Value: 25
And, if we flesh-out the figure with more training and talents, we get:
ST-12 DX-12 IQ-8
KNIFE/SWORD (2)
BOW (2)
SHIELD (1)
THROWN WEAPONS (2)
Combat EP Value: 31
THEREFORE, as a start:
1) Why can't we simply use the listed costs of the combat talents as informed by the existing TFT:ITL rules as the specific values added in calculating the total Independent Combat Value of a given enemy combatant?
2) Would this method generate a simple base system with which to achieve that goal, while working from the established rules base outwards?
3) Does this method in any way violate the feel, form, flow, flavor, or function of what makes TFT, TFT?
Survey Sez?
JK