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Old 12-14-2014, 04:32 AM   #89
vicky_molokh's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyv, Ukraine
Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Right yes (sorry I thought you'd said you would be grappling on the first turn with the wait triggered CA.

Only shoving is about changing the facing of the other, not yourself.

Only shoving (or being shoved) people round is not the only way to change your facing. And it changing your facing we're interested in. we only referencing shoving because it only in that context that facing is referenced in CC.
Well, a success of Shoving People Around gives the right to change either your facing xor the opponent's facing; that seems to indicate it's not allowed to change facing without it. Also, you can't freely Step while grappled, right? If so, you can't Change Facing either.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Remember what were talking about here, on a second by second basis someone's going to interrupt move two hexes, with facing change, parry and slip then attack from behind, all while the target stands motionless in terms of facing (but still managing to attack).
[ . . . ]
Oh the stringing together aspect is fine (as I said that wait makes wait-feint and attack so good, or even wait-set up, and attack). But how did the opponent get two consecutive manoeuvres?
Two effectively consecutive - K acts, U waits (i.e. does nothing yet), K acts again, U acts for the Wait, K rolls feint resistance, U acts again.
Strictly speaking, neither fighter strings two turn-beginnings together. But de facto both are stringing turn executions together - first K, then U.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Feint just says roll melee skills (and MA refines that to roll highest melee skill to resist). Obviously most of the time its not going to matter because as you say the attack doesn't actually happen and there's no benefit to choosing any that's not your highest skill. My general argument would be if you pretending to do a thing how well you pretend to do it will depend on how well you can do it. Bit in a game balance POV I'd do it so you don't get double effect.

Take the kick vs. strike issue here. Strike is reach C, kick is reach 1. You can't feint with strike unless in CC. But you can foent with kick at reach 1.
That's somewhat perverse, in that it means that nobody ever feints a kick or knee strike or whatever in CC, because feinting with a punch (or, worse, an improved Arm Lock) will be always better.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
So IMO you make you choice you can feint at CC with full karate skill, or you can feint at reach 1 with your karate(kick) skill. But you can't feint at reach 1 with you karate (strike) skill.

Interestingly this only really come up with unarmed skills, which tend to have a greater variety of techniques that allow you to play with stuff like reach and damage with corresponding balancing mods. I'd argue that you have to bring those mods with you when feinting as well as attacking. But I agree RAW is silent on it. It depends on how you read "compare melee skills". It's is how I initially read it and how I've always played it.

Think of it this way, you can increase the reach of a melee attack, with AoA(l), would you allow someone to declare A feint - AoA(l) and as the attack doesn't happen not take all the AoA penalties?

Not that AoA(l) and Kick tech are completely analogous of course!
Hmm. I'd actually consider allowing people to pretend that they're about to do an AoA(L). That sounds plausible. It's also a good way to make an opponent 'waste' a reaction on it fluff-wise (but de jure, it's just a reduced AD in case of a successful Feint).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Basically feinting at extra reach is very powerful because not only are you increasing situations were feint is useful, but you reducing the risk of giving up the attack as well.
People say Feint doesn't get enough love in combats unless it's an improved Technique and/or used against an inferior-skill opponent. Maybe this would make them more popular.
Also, interestingly, Evaluate only works within a range at which it is possible to strike an opponent with a Move and Attack.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
It's a tough one, because realistic I see no difference between kicking, striking or elbowing to the back left, back centre of back right (outside of lead/trailing, dominant left/right limbs questions of course). Just as attacking to any of the front three hexes isn't any different.

However, Elbow and back kick or back strike already largely circumvent the wild attack penalties as it is.

(so I can wild strike with my sword at -5 with a max skill 9, or I can just do a back strike at -2 and accept -2 pen to defences, which I'm not going to be relying on anyway what with being attacked from behind.

So ehh, I'm not sure
Yeah, tough choice indeed.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Oh I've no problem with wait allowing you to string two actions together, but I always try and refer back to what actually happening and asses it by that criteria, rather than abstract rules.

In theory you could do the following

Chap steps forward into the hex in front of you face to face you wait and feint with step, he then attacks you defend and side step, you then CA moving another hex and into CC.

You have been able to string two actions together and respond to him twice (wait and parry slip), allowing you to take 4 steps. While he has basically been an observer unable to act to avoid the chap who's just dashed to his rear and attacked him. What I find odd is that due to order of movement and attacking, the chap can attack no problem, he can even adjust his attack to the changing situation, but he remains standing fixed forward. What I might allow that free facing change to be allowable after the attack not just after the step. (abut that might less OTT position tactics harder)

It's not problem with wait, or problem with getting an extra step of defending, it when it's both together that gets a bit OTT. But even that's fine to an extent as everyone can do it. It when it get ended with grapple to the back and all that bonus I start getting a bit twitchy on it.
Well, two CAs in a row still provide less movement than an M&A, and slightly more than AoA with a Move 5 character.
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