View Single Post
Old 01-13-2018, 11:14 AM   #13
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianargent View Post
I think of it as a gamist notion to support the GEV's "too fast to target" nature. Maximum Effective Range in Ogre is determined not by the physical range of the weapons, but by their targeting/sensor ranges. The GEV can make a speeding firing pass in on their target, fire at their target as they bear, and go speeding out again before the target can localize the GEV close enough to damage it.

It's certainly a gamist concept that breaks down if you think too hard about it, but it simplifies and speeds play; and the entire rules set is balanced around (among other things) GEVs being invulnerable to anything with a strike range less than 5. Once you add terrain in, you start having to factor the different effects of terrain vs unit type; and there's a reason that LTs are more strongly affected by terrain than HTs (otherwise 2x LTs would be better than 1xHT, and as it is I've seen strong arguments than 2x LGEVs are better than 1x GEVs, because they are impacted the same by terrain).
The problem of course is that even today, MBTs can engage helicopters (which move about 50% faster than the ~70 mph GEVs move) flying nap of the earth. Indeed, as far back as the 1970s, the US Army trained to engage helicopters with wire guided AT missiles and apparently expected some degree of success.

The main problem in engaging helicopters is line of sight, which is explicitly not an issue in the Ogreverse.

So while GEVs are tactically very fast, their speed wouldn't seriously degrade a 2010-era AFV fire control system, much less a 2085 one. In 2085, the only reason an undamaged friendly unit shouldn't be able to fire at an enemy unit that moves within range is if the friendly unit is already engaging another target. The hold fire rule reflects that - a unit can only hold fire if it didn't fire in its previous combat phase (and if it was eligible to do so).

And by the way, the problem exists with other units besides GEVs. They're just the most extreme.

In 70 years, I'd expect sensors to become much better, not revert to World War 2 levels. They actually can't. The indirect fire capability integral to all Ogre units requires a very capable sensor suite; one far better than today's sensors.

The complaint raised by my friend - that I have to agree with - is that the current system sometimes rewards unrealistic tactics on the game table. Particularly in meeting engagements, which would be the most common type of engagement in a fully armored environment.

And he feels (and I do too now) that these artificial tactics seriously damage the verisimilitude that good wargames create.

The problem is that we know how AFVs act in real life. We know the scale and assumptions implicit in the Ogre universe and how they change the way AFVs act (i.e., not much at all really). So when a game tactic seriously violates that understanding, some folks don't like it.

All I'm saying is that IF you have a problem with this, then the Hold Fire mechanic is the easiest way I can think of to address it. If you don't have a problem, then keep playing GEV like you have for the last 40 years or so.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 11:31 AM.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote