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Old 07-03-2019, 09:35 AM   #29
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I usually interpret starting characters as just having somewhat more-adventurer-relevant gifts and orientations compared to average people, though sure, some could have some experience to start with.
That's just one interpretation. Regardless, they are not 'beginners'.


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That's true... but I wouldn't tend to call Olympic athletes 32-point starting TFT characters.
Really depends on the sport.

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Sure, but again, that's not what I think a typical 32-point starting character is. They're just somewhat above-average.
So being an expert at something isn't outside the realm of imagination. They aren't a master.

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Now, I can stretch that and say ok to an occasional character concept that is stretching to get Sword Expert, but:

a) it's a weird person with an unusual background who despite being below-average ST and the minimum DX 12 needed for weapon expertise, is somehow a very well-trained weapon expert despite having been a below-average fighter otherwise.
Being an expert fencer is 'weird'? I don't think so. Certainly not weirder than someone who can summon a bear from thin air.

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b) if the game is using the RAW talent-learning rules, is essentially getting a 1500 XP head start and hoping the GM will let his PC not face difficult enough combat situations to survive long enough to be given enough XP (probably for roleplaying well and avoiding getting killed) to capitalize on it.
Well, in part, that would be their choice to take that risk. Also, those 1500 theoretical xp couldn't in any way improve their concept (fighter), so instead you are forcing them to buy outside their concept? I mean, what if they wanted to start with a spell?


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It's the new system, which I see as problematic in various ways I have explained here and elsewhere many times.
Oh, I agree. Which is why I don't use it.

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No, the new massive 500 XP advantage per IQ point is not needed to give reasons to put some points in IQ. The effects of many talents themselves provide reasons to do that.
There is no reason if your concept is be the best fighter I can be. You are prioritizing attributes and forcing the players too as well.

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The new extra 500 XP per point incentive seems to me a little-if-at-all-considered side-effect of the new way to learn talents, whose stated purpose was to give something for PCs to consider spending XP on instead of attributes when attributes start getting really expensive. That's why the value is so out-of-whack for closer-to-average characters.
Sure, sure. So ignore it? Give free talents with increased IQ like the old days? Use a different xp system?

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No I don't.
Check. Wizards can be special however they want, but forget it if you want to be special and mundane.

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The argument about taking advantage of high IQ to save massive amounts on spell learning costs does apply equal to them, and does seem to me nearly-equally problematic for wizards.
so why not levy similar penalties?

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But as for the topic of disallowing expert combat talents to beginners,
Not beginners

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it does not apply, because my argument is that it is inappropriate in terms of what I think those talents represent and what starting characters represent. Wizards represent people who are focused on magic, and to me even a ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 starting wizard just represents a very learning-focused wizard who has neglected their physical aspects and their spellcasting skill. (i.e. They are not thematically inappropriate, but if using the RAW spell-learning system, they are ridiculously advantaged if they survive and get given XP to get their DX up.)
There is nothing thematically inappropriate about a fighter being good at fighting.

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Both characters are fighters, so no Mr. BeginnerExpert doesn't need to spend any XP on non-combat talents. In fact he starts with enough IQ to have various other good high-IQ non-combat talents and also start a weapon expert, while Mr. Normal is limited to crappy IQ 8 talents and will also need to shell out 500 XP for anything IQ 9 or higher.
Yes, but he's bought all he can buy (short of increasing IQ) that makes him a better fighter. So at that point he either rounds out his character or he starts the arduous climb to master. It's still a journey. Mr. Normal just...survives? Doesn't die from a single hit. Starts hitting the books I guess?

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Yes I already mentioned the same thing. Yeah, he's not a very effective fighter when he starts out. My objection is about what he supposedly represents, not that he starts out with a practical advantage.
So is it really just the term? Is it calling it 'Expert' and 'Master' that bother you? Did you have a similar problem with Fencer in the old days?

Rename the talent if what you think it represents bothers you. Call it Weapon Focus and call master weapon expert. Boom, problem solved.

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Again, only in terms of changing the system for learning talents and spells so it doesn't give a huge XP advantage to starting with high IQ.
Then what is the advantage of starting with a high IQ as a FIGHTER character? None from what I can see.
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