[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Well assuming you are talking about the Tower gun in HT, the HT one is lighter and firing significantly more (13x 1d compared to 7x 1d) and it's 11g not 20g.

I refer to the Colt Model 1855, 20G Caplock. Totally different action, of course, but the lbs. used for Weight in the weapon tables should be the same unit of measurement regardless of the action type of the weapon and similarly sized lead shot propelled by black powder at similar velocities should produce similar recoil.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

But yeah In general I take your point

Yeah I take your point. I suspect it's a factor of how weight, MinST and Rcl interact (obscured by the fact that we don't have a slug Rcl value here)

The Weight difference is only 0.5 lbs. and the Blunderbuss has slightly higher Range. There's no reasonable way to conclude that the 20-gauge Blunderbuss firing 7 shot that do 1d pi and have Range 45/810 can be affected by less recoil in a Newtonian sense than a 20-gauge shotgun firing 7 shot that do 1d pi with range 40/800. If anything, it's the same felt recoil, the extra 0.5 lbs. of the Blunderbuss compensating for the slightly heavier shot thrown by it (as evidenced by the slightly longer 1/2D Range).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

That is fast! (although I get that usual guns won't get that high) But C17th Muskets we're firing at a much slower velocity than that (that's a link straight to a PDF called "Ballistics of 17th Century Muskets " not web page) Sorry reading you post in the Chinese guns threads I realise I'm not telling you anything you don't already know here!

I highly doubt any gun made with non-magical bronze or steel will even aspire to half of that velocity. In any case, that sort of velocity requires not only a completely sealed chamber and breech, with the only path open for expanding gasses pushing a tightly fitted ball out the muzzle, which is easy to do when the 'action' is an Ignite Fire spell, but also a fairly powerful Ignite Fire spell effect that simultaneously ignites the entire charge.

I guess it's not a typical example, being more in the nature of a alchemical-magical plasma-charge rifle than a TL4 technological construct.

Also, I'd love to read the PDF, but it takes me to a page which tells me my URL was invalid. Paywall? Password-protected?

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

But ultimately I think the combinations of such high peak and TL4 metallurgy, is going to mean needing very sturdy sections of barrel where the peak will be contained.

Sure, for any weapon that proposes to function at such extreme velocities. I do not expect that to be common, however, with most longarms I envision using a fairly light charge of less finely ground smokepowder for subsonic velocites.

On the other hand, historical muzzleloaders could often take a much heavier powder charge than the listed stats assume without bursting. The limiting factor was often the recoil that the shooter was prepared to face, not the strength of the barrel. When pushing a smaller ball faster than typical black powder weapons, this limiting factor is not as severe.

Kentucky rifles didn't need massively heavy barrels to tolerate firing a .45 caliber ball at higher velocities than most military muskets operated at with their heavier balls. Even with their very long barrels, a typical example is listed in High-Tech as weighing 7 lbs., which is significantly lighter than I intend for the calivers and muskets used in my game. And the rifles were hand-crafted, with no tools that I'm aware of that are unavailable to TL4 craftsmen in the Forgotten Realms.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Elephant guns weren't firing that higher pressure peak / energy load (certainly nothing like 3500 fps) even a modern day .700 H&H nitro express is 2000fps

That's understood. But note that the performance of anything from 40-bore to 4-bore carbines, muskets, pistols and rifles can be improved very much from the stats listed in Low-Tech without reaching quite such awesome velocities. 'Just' increasing velocity from 300 fps to 900 fps makes pistols a whole different weapon, while 20- to 22-bore longarms can penetrate like low-to-average-velocity 8- to -4 bores if they achieve supersonic 1500-1600 fps at the muzzle rather than 650-1,000 fps.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

C19th 4g elephant guns were really just big short barrelled shotguns firing a sold ball at low velocity relying on mass to damage the target. Which is why even with that mass 1/2d is low on these guns

For actual use by humans, I'm thinking mainly ST 9† to ST13† weapons. Most of it is a far cry from 4-bore elephant guns. On the other hand, they're a good benchmark for how much recoil impulse a human can handle and how much power an early TL5 barrel can stand.

I'm currently thinking that smaller balls at greater velocities mean less recoil for the same penetration and so of the weapons I've imagined for the human soldiers of the PCs, only the naval blunderbuss has a higher caliber than 20-bore.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Also if your metallurgy isn't great than you have to overcompensate

Metallurgy is mature TL4 at most places that the PCs are getting their smithing done, with TL4+1 available to them in some numbers, TL4+2 being what brightest sparks affiliated with the Church of Gond are using for clockwork, springs and gearing and up to TL4^ and/or TL4+4 available through special methods. There's also quite a bit of TL1^ orichalum and TL1+3 improved bronze available in the Old Empires where they are, although both of these depend on magical or clerical support.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Well again I think your underestimating how much reliable consistent metallurgy is a factor*. There's a reason why the 4d+2 (0.80 calibre) musket at TL4 is 20lbs, but the 4d+2 (0.75 calibre, so not significantly smaller) Brown Bess flintlock at TL5 is half the weight.

*especially as weak spots and failure points will fail more consistently when subjected to normal use (i.e. being fired) than a weak spot in say a piece of armour that might go unnoticed for a while, and might even be less obvious and catastrophic when it does fail.

This is true, but bronze guns were stronger than iron/steel ones at TL4 (and the added expense of bronze is trivial compared to smokepowder costs) and, in any event, it is not likely that they'll have any guns that are meant to reach a decent velocity built without having master craftsmen supervise the process and testing the results with the Measurement spell.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

No you are right. The more I think about it, the more I see this as a gentlemen's hunting gun / show off gun. And would assume it's fine accurate and bump up the price. (that fits better with the range and as well)

I haven't found what historical firearm that these stats represent, but I'd be surprised if a Cost of $245 at TL4 is meant to represent a fancy show-off gun when a Wogdon Dueller costs $300 at TL5 and does not count as Fine (Accurate).

In any event, with the stock folded, it has one step lower Bulk than most of the military pistols found in LT, it does much more Dmg than anything but the 40" barrel Petronel (which it equals) and it has Acc 2 as a pistol. Yet it's cheaper than the inferior Military Pistol and Puffer Pistol. The only remotely competative pistol is the Queen Anne Pistol, but the increased Acc there is at least balanced by the extra trouble to reload it.

With the stock extended, it can be compared to the Fine (Accurate) Fusil Fin, except a few dollars cheaper, 2.6 lbs. lighter, one type of Dmg better (pi++ instead of pi+), one step of ST less, one step of Bulk less, but at least it's -10/-80 to Range compared to it. I don't really think that these few yards of Range make up for being better in so many other ways.

I'd understand it better if it was a famously successful weapon. But it's not. Why would everyone continue to use heavier and less accurate carbines, fusils and muskets for 150 years if this clearly superior alternative was available? At the very least; scouts, cavalry and skirmishers should have picked it up, as it is much lighter, handier and faster to reload than rifles while retaining the same Acc.

I'd think that if we were to change the stats of the weapon, a much more sensible change would be simply to reduce Acc to 2 with stock, Acc 1 without it. Then it's perfectly compatible with other weapons and quite useful as a niche weapon, without being better than everything else.