Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength

Raekai · 08-22-2019, 02:55 PM

Hey, all!

Background

I've loved Knowing Your Own Strength since the moment it was born. Logarithmic ST tickles my fancy. I haven't actually used it as a GM or as a player—it's been a little fantasy of mine, though. So, I'm finally planning on using it, and I noticed an odd problem. Damage is also done logarithmically and HP is still quadratic, which seemed fine, but I realized that wounding modifiers don't make much sense to me. Multiplicative modifiers for damage, wounding, injury, etc. seem weird and would log[arithm]ically (get it?) use addition because multiplying damage doesn't scale right even with quadratic HP. Of course, that doesn't make sense for damage—unless I'm using some kind of logarithmic HP/injury/wounding system. I think the other solution would be to make damage quadratic again, right? (I'm not actively looking for feedback on this part, but I'm still happy to have someone nitpick or prove me wrong... politely).

Issue

But there is a logarithmic solution: Conditional Injury. So, I'm wondering how to resolve logarithmic damage with logarithmic injury. Now, I'm hoping that it's as easy as saying "take the logarithmic values for ST, use them for HP, and plug those into the Robustness Threshold Table", so RT 6 would be for logarithmic HP 16–18. I guess, technically, you wouldn't even need to do that since HP doesn't matter outside of determining RT, but logarithmic HP would make RT cheaper and tighten the bands on the breakpoints (though, I'm not sure if that's a benefit or not). Now, that seems too easy, so I'm waiting for someone to bust in and say "wrong! You're going to have to re-tool the whole system!" Before you say that, my guess is that I might have to use logarithmic values for the Penetrating Damage column of the Wound Potential Table because, since logarithmic HP and logarithmic damage are smaller, logarithmic Penetrating Damage should be smaller too, right? But, if that's the case, then it gets weird.

Logarithmic Wound Potential Table

Code:

That... doesn't seem right.

Anthony's Logarithmic Damage looks like it could help, but it's a bit harder for me to piece together and resolve with Conditional Injury.

So, how can I make this work better?

Examples

Spoiler:

These examples compare Standard ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage against Logarithmic ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage. For the resolution of the examples, the above Logarithmic Wound Potential Table doesn't make a difference.

Standard ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage

Average Avery has ST/HP 10, RT 4, and uses a longsword in two hands for 1d+1 cutting and 1d+1 impaling.
Strong Straton has ST/HP 20, RT 6, and uses a longsword in two hands for 3d+3 cutting and 2d+2 impaling.
They're both unarmored and they both always do average damage (rounded up).
Avery can stab Straton for 5 impaling damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-4 difference, +2 for impaling).
Avery can chop Straton for 5 cutting damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -3 injury (-4 difference, +1 for cutting).
Straton can stab Avery for 8 impaling damage for WP 3. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 1 injury (-1 difference, +2 for impaling).
Straton can chop Avery for 14 cutting damage for WP 5. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 2 injury (1 difference, +1 for cutting).

Logarithmic ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage

Average Avery has ST/HP 10, RT 4, and uses a longsword in two hands for 1d+1 cutting and 1d+1 impaling.
Strong Straton has ST/HP 16, RT 6, and uses a longsword in two hands for 2d+3 cutting and 2d+3 impaling.
They're both unarmored and they both always do average damage (rounded up).
Avery can stab Straton for 5 impaling damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-4 difference, +2 for impaling).
Avery can chop Straton for 5 cutting damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -3 injury (-4 difference, +1 for cutting).
Straton can stab Avery for 10 impaling damage for WP 4. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 2 injury (0 difference, +2 for impaling).
Straton can chop Avery for 10 cutting damage for WP 4. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 1 injury (0 difference, +1 for cutting).

So, Avery's attacks against Straton are the same, but Straton's attacks against Avery are actually flipped. This doesn't surprise me because Knowing Your Own Strength makes thrusts a lot more powerful, but does it make sense?

Standard ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage

Strong Straton and Powerful Paulo both have ST/HP 20, RT 6, and use a longsword in two hands for 3d+3 cutting and 2d+2 impaling.
They're both wearing DR 6 armor and they both always do average damage (rounded-up).
They can stab each other for 2 impaling damage for WP 0. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -4 injury (-6 difference, +2 for impaling).
They can chop each other for 8 cutting damage for WP 3. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-3 difference, +1 for cutting).

Logarithmic ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage

Strong Straton and Powerful Paulo both have ST/HP 16, RT 6, and use a longsword in two hands for 2d+3 cutting and 2d+3 impaling.
They're both wearing DR 6 armor and they both always do average damage (rounded-up).
They can stab each other for 4 impaling damage for WP 2. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-4 difference, +2 for impaling).
They can chop each other for 4 cutting damage for WP 2. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -3 injury (-4 difference, +1 for cutting).

Again, logarithmic thrusts are way more powerful.

Note about DR

Spoiler:

08-22-2019, 02:55 PM	#1
Raekai World's Worst Detective Join Date: May 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio	Conditional Injury with Knowing Your Own Strength Hey, all! Background I've loved Knowing Your Own Strength since the moment it was born. Logarithmic ST tickles my fancy. I haven't actually used it as a GM or as a player—it's been a little fantasy of mine, though. So, I'm finally planning on using it, and I noticed an odd problem. Damage is also done logarithmically and HP is still quadratic, which seemed fine, but I realized that wounding modifiers don't make much sense to me. Multiplicative modifiers for damage, wounding, injury, etc. seem weird and would log[arithm]ically (get it?) use addition because multiplying damage doesn't scale right even with quadratic HP. Of course, that doesn't make sense for damage—unless I'm using some kind of logarithmic HP/injury/wounding system. I think the other solution would be to make damage quadratic again, right? (I'm not actively looking for feedback on this part, but I'm still happy to have someone nitpick or prove me wrong... politely). Issue But there is a logarithmic solution: Conditional Injury. So, I'm wondering how to resolve logarithmic damage with logarithmic injury. Now, I'm hoping that it's as easy as saying "take the logarithmic values for ST, use them for HP, and plug those into the Robustness Threshold Table", so RT 6 would be for logarithmic HP 16–18. I guess, technically, you wouldn't even need to do that since HP doesn't matter outside of determining RT, but logarithmic HP would make RT cheaper and tighten the bands on the breakpoints (though, I'm not sure if that's a benefit or not). Now, that seems too easy, so I'm waiting for someone to bust in and say "wrong! You're going to have to re-tool the whole system!" Before you say that, my guess is that I might have to use logarithmic values for the Penetrating Damage column of the Wound Potential Table because, since logarithmic HP and logarithmic damage are smaller, logarithmic Penetrating Damage should be smaller too, right? But, if that's the case, then it gets weird. Logarithmic Wound Potential Table Code: PD WP 1 -2 0 1 2–6 2 7–8 3 9–12 4 13–16 5 17–18 6 19–21 7 That... doesn't seem right. Anthony's Logarithmic Damage looks like it could help, but it's a bit harder for me to piece together and resolve with Conditional Injury. So, how can I make this work better? Examples Spoiler: These examples compare Standard ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage against Logarithmic ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage. For the resolution of the examples, the above Logarithmic Wound Potential Table doesn't make a difference. Standard ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage Average Avery has ST/HP 10, RT 4, and uses a longsword in two hands for 1d+1 cutting and 1d+1 impaling. Strong Straton has ST/HP 20, RT 6, and uses a longsword in two hands for 3d+3 cutting and 2d+2 impaling. They're both unarmored and they both always do average damage (rounded up). Avery can stab Straton for 5 impaling damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-4 difference, +2 for impaling). Avery can chop Straton for 5 cutting damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -3 injury (-4 difference, +1 for cutting). Straton can stab Avery for 8 impaling damage for WP 3. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 1 injury (-1 difference, +2 for impaling). Straton can chop Avery for 14 cutting damage for WP 5. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 2 injury (1 difference, +1 for cutting). Logarithmic ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage Average Avery has ST/HP 10, RT 4, and uses a longsword in two hands for 1d+1 cutting and 1d+1 impaling. Strong Straton has ST/HP 16, RT 6, and uses a longsword in two hands for 2d+3 cutting and 2d+3 impaling. They're both unarmored and they both always do average damage (rounded up). Avery can stab Straton for 5 impaling damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-4 difference, +2 for impaling). Avery can chop Straton for 5 cutting damage for WP 2. Against Straton's RT 6, this is a Severity -3 injury (-4 difference, +1 for cutting). Straton can stab Avery for 10 impaling damage for WP 4. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 2 injury (0 difference, +2 for impaling). Straton can chop Avery for 10 cutting damage for WP 4. Against Avery's RT 4, this is a Severity 1 injury (0 difference, +1 for cutting). So, Avery's attacks against Straton are the same, but Straton's attacks against Avery are actually flipped. This doesn't surprise me because Knowing Your Own Strength makes thrusts a lot more powerful, but does it make sense? Standard ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage Strong Straton and Powerful Paulo both have ST/HP 20, RT 6, and use a longsword in two hands for 3d+3 cutting and 2d+2 impaling. They're both wearing DR 6 armor and they both always do average damage (rounded-up). They can stab each other for 2 impaling damage for WP 0. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -4 injury (-6 difference, +2 for impaling). They can chop each other for 8 cutting damage for WP 3. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-3 difference, +1 for cutting). Logarithmic ST, HP, Damage, and Penetrating Damage Strong Straton and Powerful Paulo both have ST/HP 16, RT 6, and use a longsword in two hands for 2d+3 cutting and 2d+3 impaling. They're both wearing DR 6 armor and they both always do average damage (rounded-up). They can stab each other for 4 impaling damage for WP 2. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -2 injury (-4 difference, +2 for impaling). They can chop each other for 4 cutting damage for WP 2. Against their RT 6, this is a Severity -3 injury (-4 difference, +1 for cutting). Again, logarithmic thrusts are way more powerful. Note about DR Spoiler: When using Knowing Your Own Strength, I think it also makes sense to use logarithmic DR as well. I got that idea from naloth's post. What I don't like about that idea is that it has the same resolution issues at low levels as the Logarithmic Wound Potential Table, which would mean light cloth armor and light segmented plate offer the same protection, which can't be right. Then, however, I realized that DR is not like ST, it's like damage—in this case, thrusting damage. So, I converted DR to damage, converted damage to ST, converted ST to logarithmic ST, converted logarithmic ST to damage, and converted damage to logarithmic DR. For light segmented plate with DR 3, that becomes 3 damage, which is between ST 12 and 13, so I used 12.5, which gives logarithmic ST 12. Logarithmic ST 12 does 1d, which is 3.5 damage, so I rounded it back down to DR 3. For naloth's tank example with DR 1200, that becomes 342d+3 damage, which is between ST 3417 and ST 3418, so I used 3417.5, which gives logarithmic ST 61. Logarithmic ST 61 does 13d+1 damage or 46.5 damage, which I rounded down to DR 46. This is a bit lower than the DR 52 that naloth finds from converting DR like ST. __________________ Raekai's links: My blog about conlanging, GURPS, and other stuff! — Using Knowing Your Own Strength with Conditional Injury Simulating multiple attacks Wildcard Power Pool: a flexible magic/powers system Magic to RPM complete conversion v2 (incomplete) Perussinexian Magic 2 (outdated) Last edited by Raekai; 08-29-2019 at 08:41 AM.