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Old 01-07-2019, 10:59 AM   #49
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [MH] Caribbean by Night

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I'm curious...

This lack of magic functioning. How often has it happened before? Is this the first time? Is the return of magic something that can be predicted?
Well, considering that before the 1980s or so, this was our world, what do you think?

There are plenty of historical records about supernatural events, but modern people generally don't believe them. Even if we were to admit the possibility, we're still left with the fact that a great number of historical occultists were liars, conmen, drunks and, in general, bad historians and unreliable narrators. Just the fact that one or two events they record turn out to be true is a pretty thin basis for evaluating what, if anything, they may have written is also true.

Basically, modern occultists know very little about the true history of the occult. They know that some time after 1980, supernatural things were possible in this world. They know that many people have believed in them before this time and that to discerning occultists, it certainly seems that numerous recorded incidents in the 17th, 18th and 19th century have many similarities with how the paranormal works now.

Indeed, it may well be that many Ancient, Medieval and Early Modern works of occult and esoteric nature are true, while, of course, many others are bad scholarship, lies or other nonsense.

But even if so, it's not as if some grand unifying theory of magic was promulgated, proven and accepted before the paranormal went away. No one knows why it did and no one knows if it will do so again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
If there is a Divine aspect to all things, does the aspect of Divine miracles preclude a prophet from being able to function in the absence of mana?
All supernatural powers seem bound by the same laws, making it possible to argue that all of them are Divine or that none of them are. The only power source is Magical.

The setting is agnostic on the subject of deities and the divine. There are incredibly powerful entities that either live on Earth, hidden, or come from outside our reality. Many of them claim to be angels, demons, djinn, genius loci, ghosts, gods and many other things. However, superhuman powers don't necessarily make something divine or even truthful, and it's well known that spirits both lie and deceive themselves into believing their lies, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Is it possible that the Church knows more than it is letting on?
As an organisation? Possibly, though unlikely.

Certain individuals within it, because they have their own goals or are manipulating the Church for some power from outside this world? It's frightening, but more plausible than a human organisation of the size of the Catholic Church maintaining any kind of coherent conspiracy for very long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
In this campaign universe, are there others who hold deific powers where they too might know of the coming "dry spell(s)" and the return of magic that they might provide for the future dry spell and preserve knowledge and capabilities?
There are plenty of seers, prophecies and other claimants to such knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
One thing that might be worth mentioning, that if the Church is in this for the long haul - it would have evolved something rather subtle in dealing with those who might traffic in magic.
Ideally, of course, but so far, the Church and most everyone else who wants to protect humanity has been reactive, not given the luxury of making long-term plans. They don't know what is happening. No one really does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
For instance, accumulating vast historical treasures over time, it wouldn't be hard to create a false primer of magic with just enough information in it to mostly fail. This has a two fold effect on making reliable magic less reliable - after all, the spells do not work as constructed in the first place. It would discourage anyone from wasting any further time exploring magic. And secondly, because it does have a few germs of truth in it, someone who could actively practice magic might be able to make magic function despite the inherent flaws. Either way, the church, by knowing what book stores are actively buying their books, at least get an idea of where an "infection of people interested in magic" might be starting up.

But then it gets even nicer from their point of view - if they are also a supplier of material that are used in spell casting. With two sources of intel to cross reference - sales of books and sales of material components, they may have the ability to cross reference information for even better accuracy. Best of all they need not act on the information just to see whether or not the person is moving about, remaining stationary or what have you.
The Catholic Church in my campaign is the Catholic Church of our world, with a secret divergence point in the 1980s that truly changed very little and another, more major one, that gradually built to a considerable change by the 2011 or so, but still remaining, officially, exactly the same as our church, with simply a few hidden activities going on.

Even so, the Vatican is no more powerful than it is in our world. In fact, as it must face much greater challenges with roughly the same resources, it can be said to be desperately close to overwhelmed. Not to mention how difficult it is to keep the Secret, as if it got out now, the secular powers of the world would no doubt rip the church to pieces for the number of laws its agents have broken by invading any number of sovereign nations and acting as vigilantes, kidnappers and murderers there.

In a world with the Internet, eBay, Amazon, Craigslist and any number of other ways to buy or sell from strangers, anyone might be selling ancient grimoires or spell components. The Church certainly doesn't do such things, mostly because they have no time or energy to do so and also because they don't want to be painted as delusional in the world media.

Well, granted, as it turns out, priests who see through the Facade may receive training in a very stripped down version of Western Hermetic magic, mostly a few protective spells, and some of the Latin rituals and items associated with churches contain useful wards. This knowledge is spread by word of mouth, mostly by priests who may or may not have official sanction for helping Monster Hunters with no official ties to the Church, and such individuals might also be lent some useful objects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Now, what if Magic works best with certain materials? What if the inherent properties of metals and/or ingredients are such that the church begins to seek a monopoly on those things? Many assume that gold and silver being hoarded by the Church might actively be a sign of corruption. Maybe it is, but what if there was a strategic reason towards the hoarding of certain things that transcends "greed"?
Various gemstones have associations with magic and, in my campaign, the high real-world value of certain gemstones, originally came about and was maintained by, in part at least, their value for certain magical workings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Just as the sources of evil might try to infiltrate the system for the creation of priests and other personnel connected to the church, so too might the church infiltrate those that are aligned towards evil. Sometimes one uses a fire to fight fire. In the act of fighting fire with fire, perhaps evil manages to take a deeper hold in the fight along the lines of wrestling with a pig - it only makes you and the pig dirty.
If the church is doing anything like this, ironically, one of the most probable ways it might be doing it is by individual priests providing advice and support to Monster Hunters who are, on the surface at least, hardly virtuous enough to genuine Warriors of God.

Such as, for example, the people around J.R. Kessler, the Patron in my campaign, a number of whom are Catholics, and perhaps most especially, Lucien Lacoste (PC). Maybe the Church is helping them because they can do things that the Vatican never could, at least not openly.

There are also persistent rumours that while the professed religion of some powerful and influential men in Latin America might be considered hypocritical by many, it is nevertheless possible to be both a devoted Catholic and a deeply flawed and sinful man. It is also possible for someone whose entirely life has been on the wrong side of the law to feel that inhuman monsters and unholy magic are so far beyond the pale that they are willing to fight it with any means at their disposal.

While it is true that the occult underworld often coincides with the preexisting underworld and that many criminal organisations have come to be dominated by those with occult knowledge or supernatural power, that doesn't mean that every narcotraficante accepts magic and monsters the way he accepts narcotics and greed.

It is said that some organised crime figures from Latin America are funneling great parts of their profits into charities administered by the Catholic Church, with the proceeds to be used to help those victimized by Evil. And that men with impressive arsenals, usually trained in one of the Latin American militaries before entering the employ of the cartels, are fighting against monsters in Venezuela and the Andes mountains, aided by advice from 'renegade' priests.

For that matter, most of the people Kessler deals with when he has to move things between the US and some Caribbean island without drawing attention from authorities are Catholic and presumably have some other business concerns when they are not smuggling esoteric arms, vampire coffins or hog-tied sorceresses. And many of them would insist that their mundane profession is one thing, but their religion is why they feel they must aid those who fight against true Evil, not the mere peccadilloes represented by breaking arbitrary laws.
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