[Skarg]

Originally Posted by zot

I guess I don't see how using the talent as-written is "interpreting" it. Why shouldn't a gargoyle character be able to use it just as a halfling character could?

I didn't mean to suggest prohibiting Brawling for gargoyles, nor that that would be a full solution. Mainly I think Brawling should only add +1 damage to anyone's bare-hand attacks (just have "non-dirty" brawls by non-brawlers do at least -1 damage), and that also the low end of the ST/damage table ought to be tweaked down a bit (for instance, RAW ST 9 or less fighters do as much damage with one-handed clubs as they do with "real" weapons).

Originally Posted by zot

It's not a new bonus, it's how the talent works.

I meant it is new compared to the original game, in which there was no Brawling talent, and the (ST 16-20) gargoyles could be expected to do 2d damage. Unarmed Combat II could give +2 unarmed damage, but required IQ 11 (higher than a gargoyle can get), DX 14, and 4 talent points (not like the new Brawling talent's IQ 7 and 1 talent point).

So if Brawling gives +2 damage to gargoyles, essentially now all gargoyles should probably do 2d+2 damage, a major upgrade, except the dumb ones who didn't take Brawling. That strikes me as not-well-thought-out balance drift (compare to daggers), and an over-representation of brawling and its low cost.

Originally Posted by zot

If you want to exclude gargoyles from Brawling as a matter of game balance, you're welcome to do that at your game table, of course (as all GMs are), but wouldn't that actually be a change to the talent and not a correct interpretation of the how the talent is written?

I'd house rule as I mentioned above actually, but if I wanted an interpretation of the talent as written that was less of a problem, I'd say the +2 only applies to dirty brawling against people in a brawl situation where they aren't expecting you to be in dirty combat mode. So in actual deadly combat, just the +1, as that's clearly more in line with the damage from Unarmed Combat I, daggers and clubs, etc. (I agree it looks like it probably does imply you'd get a +2 in deadly combat, but I think that's problematic (as is improvised broken bottles being as deadly as daggers)).