[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

The problem is that you can’t limit such assumptions (which I don’t agree with, but for purposes of discussion we’ll assume I do) to the situations I described. If the environment you postulate existed, then units should fire in some random order. Tha would slow the game to a crawl.

Realistic simulation is always difficult to make gameable.

Why is it so important to rationalize an issue that has been understood to be a flaw in ugo/igo games since Panzerblitz?

I'm not. I understand the issue.

My only point is that your arguments that return fire should be assumed to be accurate and instantaneous is the wrong argument. Indirect fires aren't either of these things.

What’s so hard about admitting what is self evident to me - a stock ugo/igo system will always allow moving units to gain an unrealistic advantage?

No difficulty, it is true. However it isn't an unfair advantage, both sides are able to make use of it.

GEV is not some transcendent thing that is somehow immune to the rules that apply to every other game with similar systems.

No game is ordinaryly subject to the rules of other games. I also can't win GEV by buying development cards, or reaching level 10 by killing a monster, or by putting your king in check, or with a royal flush.

But it still gives attacking units an unreasonable advantage that is implausible given what we know about modern AFV combat and the revealed nature of the Ogre universe.

No more implausible than then way that you somehow win a rail race by matching cards and connecting two pairs of cities on opposite sides of the country.

Well not me. I infer it from the game itself. Most scenarios feature complete knowledge of the battlefield and there are no mechanisms for spotting hidden units or somesuch. The closest thing I am aware of was the breakthrough scenario (IIRC) in GEV that allowed the defender to cover up his units. Even then, you there were enemy units present; you just didn’t know exactly what they were. (And that, by the way, would argue against attacking GEVs being able to ambush defending tanks that are waiting for them. Obviously the defending units have more information than the attackers).

Yes, I am aware of what the game's fluff says to explain why it is a perfect information game.

I really don’t think it is. In fact, we’re fast reaching the point now in the Real World. Tiny tactical drones with high resolution cameras and the military version of Google Earth have made tactical surprise a much rarer occurrence - at least as long as the batteries last. I’m working up a design called FFT 2050 - a mid 21st century Fistful of TOWs variant. No cybertanks, so it doesn’t really compete with Ogre. As I project current trends, the “fog of war” is quickly evaporating. Indeed, I’m having to rig the analysis to keep AFVs viable. Top-attack, fire and forget brilliant missiles are gonna be rough on tanks. I also have to rig the analysis to allow GEVs, but the Rule of Cool applies there.

I have fought in this battlespace. None of that tech works as well as you think it does. We often didn't know where the enemy was, right now. Really the only times we did was when we were engaged. Rarely, sometimes we knew where they were several minutes ago.

But if I’m wrong, that doesn’t make the “attacker ambush” tactic more realistic. If there is a significant fog of war, the defender invariably has more information than the attacker. His units are hidden and in the best terrain. That argues against “attacker ambush” tactics.

Yeah that's not what I am saying. All I am saying is that indirect fire isn't ever as accurate or responsive as direct fire. Improvements that make it more so are also going to benefit direct fire too.

Your MTB versus helicopter expirements probably didn't bother to try to shoot at helicopters as far away as a single Ogre hex, and certainly not with their main gun. Nobody has tried to figure out how to shoot distant helicopters with howitzers or mortars either. There is a reason for this.

Anyway this seems to be going nowhere, enjoy your house rule.