View Single Post
Old 06-21-2013, 06:30 AM   #46
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Right. It's down to the GM's judgment.

Just like there's nothing in the system that says characters have bodily functions that get rid of the excess matter they consume, but a GM might still call for HT rolls with increasing penalties for a character who tried to stand absolutely still somewhere for hours on end shortly after drinking lots of fluids.

As with other matters not detailed in the rulebooks, but potentially vital for some situation, the GM should absolutely adjudicate this based on the situation and allow the right skills to be used to minimise any problems. So, just like Hiking, Soldier or Survival might be of use to avoid drinking too much before a PC has to play a statue for a few hours (and avoid looking like a cupid in a fountain), Wrestling or Judo plays a role in reducing the noise someone makes as he dies.
I'm not okay with the GM's judgement defining an arbitrary duration after losing consciousness in which a character is not actually unconscious.

Houserule maybe, but you seem to prefer to define the duration as exactly long enough to make not doing things the way you prefer into a disaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Holding a dying person who weights something close to your own weight is really hard with one arm. Unless the character doing sentry removal has BL of 80 or more, it's not really likely he'll be able to hold up the sentry if he collapses with only one arm.

And if you drop the sentry, his rifle might discharge and even if it doesn't, he'll certainly make a noise as he lands. And, worst case scenario, he wasn't dead as he dropped, he was stunned or faking.
If you need BL 80 to do it with one arm, you need BL 40 to do it with two, don't you? Sentry removal is an ST 15 minimum activity? Also, you should evidently freely allow anyone to automatically escape most grapples by falling over.

Or we could suppose that holding someone uprght when they're collapsing doesn't actually require enough ST to pick them up in two seconds...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Real world sentry removal is predicated on the soldier not having a magical sense about the health of the sentry. If you tell your players exactly what their attacks accomplished, as opposed to what their characters perceive about the effects of their attacks, a lot of the difficulty disappears.


If you want GURPS to approach reality, you'll have to use every realistic optional rule. Including the ones in Tactical Shooting about only revealing those details of a combat situation that the characters can perceive, as per Per or Per-based skill rolls.

The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him. He doesn't know if the sentry is mentally stunned, physically stunned from wounds or unconscious and starting to fall. A sudden drop might be unconciousness, it might be a clever way to get out of a one-handed grapple by faking weakness and using gravity.
I have no idea why you think this is relevant. My strategy avoids more uncertainty...if you only make the first thrust and then hold on, as you say, you don't know how much damage you've done, and maybe it's not enough. If you keep on stabbing, you don't know how much damage you've done but it's rapidly increasing to the point where sufficiency is assured.

One stab, maybe the guy's not even seriously injured. Stab a dozen or so times and the guy is pretty definitely below zero HP. Don't trust that either, you can always keep stabbing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The PC pretty much has to assume that until he's had time to make thoroughly sure, the sentry is still dangerous and still capable of shouting or firing his weapon. That means he can't afford to let him slip from a grapple which controls his Face (mouth which can scream) while simultaneously preventing him from firing a weapon, falling down or dropping anything heavy so that it clatters around. And it's just not practical to do all of the above with one hand.
In that case, you can't pull it off at all, can you? In the first second, you certainly need to assume the sentry is dangerous, but you can't use both hands to grapple unless you're planning to rip out his throat with your teeth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
No rule in GURPS states that upon failing a death check or unconsciousness check, a character succumbs without making a sound. In order to prevent a dying scream, the PC has to be holding the sentry in a grapple or lock which prevents him from making much noise, firing a weapon or falling down until he has definitely lost consciousness. And then he can lay him down gently.

If you just let him go as soon as you think he's lost consciousness, you might find that he was just stunned and the first warning you get might be him shouting or firing.
I'm not sure how, at this point, you could not get that I'm not proposing to drop the sentry before making sure, or without restraining them at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
As for why it helps to hold him for that long? Well, since a dying scream is one of those GM's judgment things that still affect gameplay, but don't have explicit rules, you'll have to hope that waiting until the sentry was definitely dead means he won't make one.

He may have tried at whatever second he actually died (or lost consciousness), but at that point, you were holding him in a grapple which prevented the sound from being as loud as it otherwise would have been.
You can't wait until the sentry is definitely dead without the arterial bleeding houserule, because the sentry is very unlikely to die while you wait.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote