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Old 06-20-2013, 06:14 PM   #44
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [HT][TS]Tactics for realistic suppressors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Except that there's no definition of 'while he is dying'. It does not exist. There is absolutely nothing in the system that says how long I have to wait.
Right. It's down to the GM's judgment.

Just like there's nothing in the system that says characters have bodily functions that get rid of the excess matter they consume, but a GM might still call for HT rolls with increasing penalties for a character who tried to stand absolutely still somewhere for hours on end shortly after drinking lots of fluids.

As with other matters not detailed in the rulebooks, but potentially vital for some situation, the GM should absolutely adjudicate this based on the situation and allow the right skills to be used to minimise any problems. So, just like Hiking, Soldier or Survival might be of use to avoid drinking too much before a PC has to play a statue for a few hours (and avoid looking like a cupid in a fountain), Wrestling or Judo plays a role in reducing the noise someone makes as he dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm not proposing skipping the grappling. Obviously, that won't work. I'm saying that switching from one hand grappling and one hand stabbing to two hands grappling is not productive.
Holding a dying person who weights something close to your own weight is really hard with one arm. Unless the character doing sentry removal has BL of 80 or more, it's not really likely he'll be able to hold up the sentry if he collapses with only one arm.

And if you drop the sentry, his rifle might discharge and even if it doesn't, he'll certainly make a noise as he lands. And, worst case scenario, he wasn't dead as he dropped, he was stunned or faking.

Real world sentry removal is predicated on the soldier not having a magical sense about the health of the sentry. If you tell your players exactly what their attacks accomplished, as opposed to what their characters perceive about the effects of their attacks, a lot of the difficulty disappears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm also not saying this is true in reality. But if it is true in GURPS but not reality, well, that's notable.
If you want GURPS to approach reality, you'll have to use every realistic optional rule. Including the ones in Tactical Shooting about only revealing those details of a combat situation that the characters can perceive, as per Per or Per-based skill rolls.

The player doesn't know if his first thrust killed the sentry, stunned him or just nicked him. He doesn't know if the sentry is mentally stunned, physically stunned from wounds or unconscious and starting to fall. A sudden drop might be unconciousness, it might be a clever way to get out of a one-handed grapple by faking weakness and using gravity.

The PC pretty much has to assume that until he's had time to make thoroughly sure, the sentry is still dangerous and still capable of shouting or firing his weapon. That means he can't afford to let him slip from a grapple which controls his Face (mouth which can scream) while simultaneously preventing him from firing a weapon, falling down or dropping anything heavy so that it clatters around. And it's just not practical to do all of the above with one hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
No thanks to GURPS bleeding...
Which is why I use house-rules in my games that are based on 3e rules for more severe arterial bleeding. But even without them, note that explaining the eventual collapse of a wounded character from a failed HT check as succumbing to blood loss is sensible and fits with the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
It doesn't work in GURPS when you've ruled that failing an HT check to retain consciousness doesn't mean you can't still actively cause trouble. Why does that ruling cease to apply here? In what way does holding a guy for 30 seconds get to force actual unconsciousness rather than that watered-down 'unconsciousness' that doesn't actually mean they have to stop doing things?
No rule in GURPS states that upon failing a death check or unconsciousness check, a character succumbs without making a sound. In order to prevent a dying scream, the PC has to be holding the sentry in a grapple or lock which prevents him from making much noise, firing a weapon or falling down until he has definitely lost consciousness. And then he can lay him down gently.

If you just let him go as soon as you think he's lost consciousness, you might find that he was just stunned and the first warning you get might be him shouting or firing.

As for why it helps to hold him for that long? Well, since a dying scream is one of those GM's judgment things that still affect gameplay, but don't have explicit rules, you'll have to hope that waiting until the sentry was definitely dead means he won't make one.

He may have tried at whatever second he actually died (or lost consciousness), but at that point, you were holding him in a grapple which prevented the sound from being as loud as it otherwise would have been.
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