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Old 02-15-2018, 09:04 AM   #97
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Here's an example how Hold Fire would work:

PU Turn 1, Movement Phase: PU heavy tank is undisabled and moves normally.

PU Turn 1, Combat Phase: PU heavy tank is eligible to fire. It forgoes firing and takes a Hold Fire marker instead.

Combine Turn 2, Movement Phase: Combine units overrun PU Heavy tank and overrun combat is handled normally. The Combine units are destroyed and the Heavy Tank survives. It keeps its Hold Fire marker.

Combine Turn 2, Combat Phase: PU heavy tank fires first in the combat phase. Results are assessed at the end of the combat phase, however. Combine units fire and results take effect immediately. Results of PU hold fire then take effect. (So a Combine unit destroyed by hold fire will still get to attack).

PU Turn 3, Movement Phase: PU heavy tank moves normally.

PU Turn 3, Combat Phase: PU heavy tank is eligible to fire. It can either fire, or it can take a new Hold Fire marker. Since its target is within range now, the heavy tanks fires in this phase and eschews the Hold Fire option.

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Kicking around the rules description for this...please help get this ironed out.

A unit that could have attacked on it's Fire Phase but did not may instead hold it's fire.
Place a "HOLD FIRE" Token on the unit at the end of it's Fire Phase.
Multiple units holding their fire may use a single HOLD FIRE Token as long as it's clear what units are doing so.
OGREs holding their fire have such weapons doing so temporarily marked on their stat cards.

Units holding their fire are attacked normally in overrun combat. Their HOLD FIRE status remains after the overrun is completed.

A unit must have a HOLD FIRE Token on it designating as such in order to use HOLD FIRE. If no Token is placed, no HOLD FIRE is considered.
Correct so far.

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Question/Suggestion: Should a unit that is holding fire be allowed to use it's HOLD FIRE before it is overrun, and then overrun is resolved normally?
No. Frankly, Hold Fire is unnecessary since the non-moving unit gets the first shot (and at far greater lethality - D results are counted as X results). Overrun attacks are expensive for the attacker as-is.

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Question/Suggestion: Should a unit that is holding fire be allowed to use it's HOLD FIRE before it is rammed, and then ramming is resolved normally?
I don't recall when the ram occurs in OGRE, but I'd say no. But remember that ramming is an Ogre rule. In GEV, it's replaced by overrun combat. And as noted, I'm ambivalent about retrofitting Hold Fire to straight up Ogre games.

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Question/Suggestion: How should OGRE weapons holding fire be handled? There are a few variations possible:

1) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE but all OGRE weapons must HOLD FIRE as a group. Either all weapons are holding fire or none are.

2) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE only if they are of the same type as a group. Main Batteries, Secondary Batteries, AP Guns, External Missiles, Missile Racks.
I don't like either of these solutions.

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3) OGRE weapons may HOLD FIRE with any number of it's weapons.
This would be my preference, particularly for GEV games.

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After some more play-testing, I noticed you can use HOLD FIRE on units closest to the enemy that are out of move/attack range and not move them any closer while waiting for reinforcements to come up for more combined fire power as you give them Hold Fire, waiting for the enemy to attack at which point you can return HOLD FIRE with more attack strength by maneuvering your units this way. I keep seeing more interesting opportunities for stuff like this. This tactic of course must be considered against the possible better tactic of just outright attacking in the first place instead.
Another example of Hold Fire being used in unexpected cool ways, GEVs can move their 1st Movement Phase then Hold Fire on their Fire Phase then move their Secondary Movement for a maximum move of 7 hexes and be at Hold Fire. This creates some interesting tactical maneuvering I haven't fully explored yet. Basically, you can move a GEV deep into enemy lines, especially behind an OGRE and get to attack if the OGRE and or other units are in range on their Fire Phase.
The purpose of Hold Fire (and its cousin, Opportunity Fire/Overwatch Fire) is to enable game board tactics that resemble Real World tactics. Your experience validates that it works, at least to some extent.

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Question: To be clear, a unit that holds it's fire only gets to use it on the enemy Fire Phase, simultaneously, correct?
Correct

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And HOLD FIRE counts as that units fire for their own turn, is the correct?
Correct.

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I mean, they wouldn't get to then also make their normal attack on their own fire phase after that would they?
See example above.

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You could add Infantry and Marines to the units that would get to attack first in the suggestion rule I mentioned for GEVs vs OGREs. All other units make simultaneous attacks.


Sorry, can you clarify this...what's a ME?
You can modify the rule with various exceptions, such as allowing certain units to fire first, but it becomes a very different rule. I personally favor as little alteration as possible, while addressing the implausible tactics I listed at the beginning of the thread.

My suggestion is to play the rule a few times as I wrote it. Then add tweaks one at a time and test them, one at at time. If they (a) make the game less fun or (b) enable implausible tactics, then I'd ditch them. If they make the game more fun and don't enable implausible tactics, I'd keep them.

Now if you want a very different experience, invert the combat phases. I.e., PU moves, Combine fires. Then Combine moves, PU fires. That would largely alleviate the need for Hold Fire mechanics.

It is also a reasonable combat sequence, considering that even today, tanks with modern stabilized guns can move and fire without serious degradation. This means that moving overwatch becomes feasible. In 70 years, I'd expect for movement to have no effect whatsoever on firing.

But it would be a very different game.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-15-2018 at 10:40 AM.
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