Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin
The original point of marsh was to simply negate the water's "you must stop at the edge" clause. This also brings up the reminder: Is this supposed to be a full-hex thing, or a hex-side thing (it started out has hexside terrain)?
|
It started out as a hex-side concept because it was viewed as just being a Beach variant. This meant it could be a 1 hex-side up to full-hex size. Which I really like the idea of. It covers all possibilities like a Beach hex.
However, I also think hex-side is ultimately too complicated. It would offer more and interesting options but too much added complexity. It would also add a bucket full of new terrain that would need made to represent all those hex-sided variations. We don't even have all the Beach ones available yet.
Full-hex is my choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin
In a word: yuck.
I don't know if you are going out of your way to prove a point by making the entire rule pieces of other rules, but that's just confusing. Maybe those are the bullet points for what you want it to be, but it needs to be articulated more cleanly; especially around how the transition is expected to behave (considering part of the point of beaches is to maintain the road bonus, which you explicitly are not).
|
All of the above and guilty as charged. :)
By any and all means if anyone can word it more concisely please do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin
So an interesting quirk of this attempt... Marsh becomes the only terrain type that can cause a disable roll, but does not stop movement for the turn. That doesn't sound like a good idea. GEVs are very fragile and have to stop all the time when entering just about every terrain on the map. Why should Marsh be any different?
|
As I mentioned earlier...in the context of it being used in OGRE, Marsh is low lying vegetation and Swamp also has trees. It is in between both in the sense that a GEV does not have to stop before entering, but once in the hex, it is considered Swamp and a Disable Roll is required. It is a Light Swamp in a way. Even though Marsh is not Swamp, it has the same Disabling possibility which is explained as Marsh having potential areas within it's hex that can be as slowing to a GEV as a Swamp hex. For example, the low lying vegetation is particularly thick where the Disable Roll is failed. If the Roll is made, the GEV successfully navigated around it.
This is also why it was suggested earlier to maybe have a lower Disable chance for Marsh. I would agree with that and like the suggestion, but it's adding more rules. In this case, I think it may be worth having, but to keep it simple, I'd say don't. Also because if you have a lower Disable chance, I think it's making the Marsh too powerful.
As to it not sounding like a good idea because Marsh is the only terrain that does not require a GEV to stop before entering, but still requires a Disable Roll, this is exactly why I think it is a good idea. Again I point to my QUAGMIRE/QUAGMIRE! Scenarios that use the Marsh "bug" where they do not have to stop before entering Swamp. If that "bug" is removed from the game, those Scenarios will be half as fun as they are atm with it. It's not just my Scenarios, because it could be used in other ones obviously. This is that big of a deal Imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig
My concern is a balance one...striving to keep it to where it serves its purpose mechanically, serves its purpose conceptually, without being way too powerful. I'm not sure I like any of the ways of handling it, to be honest.
|
Agreed. This is tricky to articulate, but I am convinced it can be forged into a proper new terrain type. We just have to keep exploring its permutations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig
My concern with removing the roll entirely means the GEVs...even though their movement is reduced to 2-1...are getting a lot of free shots every time a pursuing non-GEV ends up disabled by terrain. For a small pocket of marsh/swamp where the pursuer can go around, or hang out at the edges taking potshots, that's not a big deal, but for maps that use them as their main feature...NAC protecting a refinery in the Louisiana Bayou, Nihon marching through the Monsoon-soaked islands of the Pacific Rim, or the savage fighting in the general yuck of the Amazon Combat Zone...that could prove scenario-breaking to the point players would be literally playing GEV(s only). Maybe I'm not giving light tracked units enough credit, and my concerns are moot enough that we can say "GEVs are not required to make 'Disabled by Terrain' rolls in a Marsh" and leave it at that, but that's why I'm leery enough to suggest what I did with the artifact it has.
My concern with keeping the roll and the stop penalty is that it ceases to be distinct enough to justify its existence. At that point it's better served as a hexside, which we've already ruled out as being too fiddly in a real-world logistical sense.
At that point, that really only leaves two options: Doing something other than "Remove the roll entirely" to make it worthwhile as a full hex (unless killing the roll entirely pans out in playtesting, at which point go with it because consistent rules are awesome), or resign ourselves to leaving the potential for interesting scenarios/engagements on the table.
Picture a battle where a pack of GEVs have lured a pursuing force into the sweet spot where the armor chasing them can get bogged down, but their own mobility hasn't been completely hindered...ducking and weaving through a flood plain at half throttle, picking off the mired-down stragglers of a force desperately trying to forge into the yuck to get an objective deep in the heart of the awful, soggy blech...right up until one of the GEVs finds a spot shallow enough to throw a GEV into the air, disorienting its crew and allowing the armor to pounce...that's what I'm trying to enable by sticking with it.
|
Yes. It brings new dynamic gameplay to battles giving GEVs more "character". Swamps are still Swamps. This is exactly why I prefer keeping the Disable Roll in. This is also what makes it unique enough and worthy enough to be a viable new terrain type in the game in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig
It's probably a fool's errand, and may never reach the point where it's distinct enough to justify its existence and refined enough to be playable, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying getting to exercise my brain.
|
I think we fairly well have the main concept down.
MARSH
Full-hex.
GEVs do not have to stop when entering.
GEVs are considered to be in Swamp when they have entered MARSH.
I reference my Yucky iteration as a basis to work from (this is what it is trying to do at least):
2.01.10 Marsh. "A Marsh hex is filled with low lying vegetation and considered to be a Water hex (2.01.6) for movement purposes with no movement bonus and a Swamp hex (2.01.5) for disable rolls. For transitioning purposes only into or out of Marsh, it is considered Beach (2.01.9)."