[Mithlas]

Originally Posted by Desthro

you need to consolidate the skills in order to make them more appropriate. There are few skill-penalty analogues in GURPS Magic. And the ones that do exist, like the -1 per hex distance penalty, result in a heavy skewing towards spells that AREN'T reliant on distance. There aren't "deceptive" casting techniques to make your resisted spell more likely to penetrate your subject's resistances, or "All-Out Concentration" maneuvers, or "Telegraphing" to make your spells easier to cast.

GURPS Magic had no tools or framework to teach you how to design your own spells or colleges. Worse, one can't even derive a consistent framework because the spells themselves are inconsistent from spell to spell, even between similar spells.

I was part of a GURPS fantasy game involving retooled magic in order to fit the "Avatar the Last Airbender"-esque setting, though I can't find the file. Much of it involved consolidating spells, and a huge number were just thrown out because it wasn't possible to mesh them with the somewhat straightforward and physical manner there. The game burned out because a paranoid player kept steering everyone away from anything that could've risked his character, but as it expanded spells so there were 5 elements and spells were consolidated so the same spell that stoked a fire also extinguished it.

Originally Posted by wellspring

no way to create new spells like you can with RPM or Sorcery.

I'm unfamiliar with how Ritual Path Magic or Sorcery does so, though I might be missing a reference. Could you point me at something specific?

Originally Posted by wellspring

My own idea was to find a way to use Powers-to-Skills with the Sorcery system and try to rebuild the spells in GURPS Magic that way

The poster seems to have a very clear goal of consolidation, which I think is one step toward fixing the problem of a large and inconsistent spell list. Powers seems complicated, I'm curious how you fared and what your focus was.

Originally Posted by hal

return to the roots of GURPS MAGIC and try THAT on for a bit before you shoot the horse and bury it forever as "unusable". I'd allow SOME of the spells from GURPS GRIMOIRE in my campaigns

By the same token, with the sheer volume there is a LOT to scan through before saying "this is good" and "this is a no-go", that has to be acknowledged. Many of the people claiming problems have specific aspects to be addressed, doing so could help make a framework for GURPS magic like most of the other aspects of GURPS: a framework to make other things on, which is difficult to do with magic as is. There's also the risk of rose-tinted glasses when you look back at the "pure times".

Originally Posted by hal

GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition remains my true love over that of the Ritual Path magic. And if it weren't GURPS that I was using for my group, I'd be using CJ Carella's (yes, the author of GURPS VOODOO) Eden Studio WITCHCRAFT and ARMAGEDDON.

You mention several books, which one are you recommending we look at? GURPS Magic 2nd edition or Witchcraft and Armageddon?

Originally Posted by Otaku

I like the concept of simplifying spells, turning the almost endless variations originally presented as entirely separate spells into Techniques. I think part of why the discussion gets so easily off on tangents is it exposes that GURPS actually still has a lot of areas where it could have better internal consistency. Adjusting for settings, we probably need to be able to model powers, psionics and spells (plus other bits) as Skills or Advantages or Advantages that also use Skills.

It might make world shattering mages less expensive or make certain spells a bit hard to access, but I'd rather get there and then address those problems than continuing to struggle with the current issues.

I would like a consistent framework. That's why I left Shadowrun 5th edition (they lost consistency).

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

• Too many overly-specific spell skills; bloated lists where options could have been placed on some to expand their utility (History, Ancient History, and Prehistory, Neutralize Poison and Instant Neutralize Poison, [missile] and Explosive [missile], [spell] and Mass [spell], et cetera).
• Convoluted spell prerequisite trees. Too many wimpy spells have extremely long prerequisite chains based on the complexity of other spells which could logically have served as prerequisites. Spell prerequisites as a concept are very flavorful, it's just that some spells made up later on in the system's lifespan wound up getting placed too deep in the trees
• Absolute skill level breakpoints. I prefer to gauge energy reduction by relative skill level and make the ritual requirements optional skill modifiers, based on the Alternate Rituals optional rule.
• One stat to rule them all. "Good" wizard builds below a certain point total all look very samey to me (and my advice on almost all wizard builds I've ever made is to make them more like that) due to the relative usefulness of IQ and Magery over HT/FP/ER, Will, DX, and Per. I think some spells should be based on different attributes from each other and/or skills should be floated more often.
• Positive modifiers for spellcasting are hard to find; this coupled with the default breakpoint at level 15 make it rare for wizards to be going around with spell levels in the 8-14 range of the other adventuring skills, and thus the system is very hard on low point total casters and on dabblers.

Powers is there, but lots of work if you want anything other than a fairly basic Super character with mana-sensitive powers. Sorcery is largely the same, but with lots of worked examples and a very good use of Alternate Abilities.

As soon as I saw "magic spells are skills, learned in the same way as other skills" that really clicked with me on a level no other magic system has.

I like the balance and intricacy of Powers...but at the same time find the intricacy off-putting. I agree about the ritual options (we used them for the 2-3 weeks of our Last Airbender-esque game), but I'm not sure what you mean about use of relative skill level.