Steve Jackson Games Forums - View Single Post - What do you think the Long Night was like?

hal · 03-30-2019, 09:08 PM

At some point in time (especially over at the Mongoose Traveller Forum (CotI no longer a place I frequent) I believe I asked the question...

What constitutes a world government?

At what point in time will a world be ready for "Membership" such that they have representation at the Moot? What is the status of worlds that are not yet ready for that "label" as a world member - are they protectorates? Are they colonies? Are they resource reservations in the sense that the Third Imperium has laid claim to the world, but not colonized it? If Sternmetal wants to mine ore from a world - can they simply squat on the world, extract resources, and when they're done, either leave behind "resource extraction settlements " (mining camps, logging camps, fishing villages etc) - or take up everything and depopulate the world as they search for a new world to plunder of its resources?

In the end, these are not questions being asked by authors who want to see a coherent whole that is the Third Imperium - the books being written are those the publishers think will sell. If I weren't unemployed, I'd be buying MJ Doughtery's work on Naval life and privateering and all that stuff that he wrote not too long ago. But he's approaching it from the mindset of "What if I were there, what would I see, how would this have to evolve?" (at least it seems that way to me).

I'm not complaining mind you. I would love to see the Third Imperium detailed a bit better so that if Traveller and RPG's in general are still around 20 years from now (by then I should likely be either in a cemetery or a nursing home!) - someone will be able to look at the vast details of publishers who have gone before - and build on that even.

What is the definition of a Citizen? What is the definition of a Subject? How can a Citizen of the Imperium have their life terminated for a religious offense that isn't an offense in the eyes of the Iridium Throne and 99% of the Third Imperium Members? On and on the questions go, with no real answer possible as long as the insistence that worlds have their own sovereign governments holding sway over Imperial culture (let alone the issues of how to have a unified Imperial Culture on all worlds where the government can differ greatly!)

In any event - the "fiction" that things were not at all dark misses the fact that something causes the worlds to fragment from the unified rule, and keeps them fragmented for centuries. THAT is the Dark period. If trade was as strong then as it becomes later - then why didn't the Third Imperium get started earlier from another cluster of worlds who kept their Class A starport designation, their TL A+ infrastructure?

If you have Pocket Empires - I'd like to suggest the following: Create a pocket empire with a total number of worlds equal to 1 (itself). Start with what ever assumptions you wish to start with - then play it as of the year -1776 in say, Deneb's sector. Then, using just the rules from Pocket Empire, track the history of that world over a span of centuries. How long would it take for that single world to act as a nucleus for a new expanding pocket empire?

If there are multiple worlds with star hopping infrastructure that remained intact - using Pocket Empires, how long would it take for them to band together and rape the sector of Deneb? How long would it take for two hard headed cultures to clash heads before one or the other concedes defeat and the victor takes over the defeated world's pocket empire?

WHAT kept the worlds more or less "stuck in stasis" where they didn't expand out and engulf their neighbors?

In the end? I think the questions I'm asking are going to be "Detail oriented" that may be TOO detail oriented (if you get my drift). I asked before - why can't a single world build jump drives, ship them as a UNIT, then have that unit installed at a far away star port capable of installing refits and doing repairs? Why is there even this distinction between class A star ports and Class B starports? Is there some "unobtainium" required to build jump drives that lack of this material dooms a world to being unable to build jump drives even if it can still improve on fusion power plants or medical technology or computer technology etc?

Empire building is a logistical exercise. Mobility is required to engage in that kind of growth. Technology provides for both mobility and the capability for a functional logistical capability. What was it that the worlds lacked in one or both capabilities that had the long night last as long as it did?

03-30-2019, 09:08 PM	#11
hal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York	Re: What do you think the Long Night was like? At some point in time (especially over at the Mongoose Traveller Forum (CotI no longer a place I frequent) I believe I asked the question... What constitutes a world government? At what point in time will a world be ready for "Membership" such that they have representation at the Moot? What is the status of worlds that are not yet ready for that "label" as a world member - are they protectorates? Are they colonies? Are they resource reservations in the sense that the Third Imperium has laid claim to the world, but not colonized it? If Sternmetal wants to mine ore from a world - can they simply squat on the world, extract resources, and when they're done, either leave behind "resource extraction settlements " (mining camps, logging camps, fishing villages etc) - or take up everything and depopulate the world as they search for a new world to plunder of its resources? In the end, these are not questions being asked by authors who want to see a coherent whole that is the Third Imperium - the books being written are those the publishers think will sell. If I weren't unemployed, I'd be buying MJ Doughtery's work on Naval life and privateering and all that stuff that he wrote not too long ago. But he's approaching it from the mindset of "What if I were there, what would I see, how would this have to evolve?" (at least it seems that way to me). I'm not complaining mind you. I would love to see the Third Imperium detailed a bit better so that if Traveller and RPG's in general are still around 20 years from now (by then I should likely be either in a cemetery or a nursing home!) - someone will be able to look at the vast details of publishers who have gone before - and build on that even. What is the definition of a Citizen? What is the definition of a Subject? How can a Citizen of the Imperium have their life terminated for a religious offense that isn't an offense in the eyes of the Iridium Throne and 99% of the Third Imperium Members? On and on the questions go, with no real answer possible as long as the insistence that worlds have their own sovereign governments holding sway over Imperial culture (let alone the issues of how to have a unified Imperial Culture on all worlds where the government can differ greatly!) In any event - the "fiction" that things were not at all dark misses the fact that something causes the worlds to fragment from the unified rule, and keeps them fragmented for centuries. THAT is the Dark period. If trade was as strong then as it becomes later - then why didn't the Third Imperium get started earlier from another cluster of worlds who kept their Class A starport designation, their TL A+ infrastructure? If you have Pocket Empires - I'd like to suggest the following: Create a pocket empire with a total number of worlds equal to 1 (itself). Start with what ever assumptions you wish to start with - then play it as of the year -1776 in say, Deneb's sector. Then, using just the rules from Pocket Empire, track the history of that world over a span of centuries. How long would it take for that single world to act as a nucleus for a new expanding pocket empire? If there are multiple worlds with star hopping infrastructure that remained intact - using Pocket Empires, how long would it take for them to band together and rape the sector of Deneb? How long would it take for two hard headed cultures to clash heads before one or the other concedes defeat and the victor takes over the defeated world's pocket empire? WHAT kept the worlds more or less "stuck in stasis" where they didn't expand out and engulf their neighbors? In the end? I think the questions I'm asking are going to be "Detail oriented" that may be TOO detail oriented (if you get my drift). I asked before - why can't a single world build jump drives, ship them as a UNIT, then have that unit installed at a far away star port capable of installing refits and doing repairs? Why is there even this distinction between class A star ports and Class B starports? Is there some "unobtainium" required to build jump drives that lack of this material dooms a world to being unable to build jump drives even if it can still improve on fusion power plants or medical technology or computer technology etc? Empire building is a logistical exercise. Mobility is required to engage in that kind of growth. Technology provides for both mobility and the capability for a functional logistical capability. What was it that the worlds lacked in one or both capabilities that had the long night last as long as it did?