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Old 09-29-2013, 12:25 PM   #45
Yako
 
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
In order to duplicate your example of having a lifted subject with TK helpless you need another ability, Binding, that would be bought along with the TK and somehow linked to it. The Psionic Powers book creates a framework in which almost any fictional powers can be made. Binding is specifically mentioned at the end of the Pychokinesis chapter.
The main problem here would be that binding would need some extensive modifications to make sense as something linked to telekinesis.

Binding is a one time attack, you usually need not involve yourself with your Binding after you hit and entangled someone, Telekinesis however is NOT.

Thus I really don't think a link accomplishes much, especially since Telekinesis can already make someone helpless by the usual takedown and pin, use enough strength and even a regular contest should be over in a few attempts at best.
compartmmentalized mind or reduced time would allow it to happen quick enough to be highly cinematic too.

My problem is, as stated before, that as written, the rules force pushing to the ground instead of lifting up though if someone wants to do this.
This is basically the one problem of how to model the situation beyond the very sparse rules about it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
What people keep missing is what I keep saying and what the rules say:
Picking someone up does penalize his Dodge horribly – he suffers the usual -1 for being grappled and cannot use retreat for +3!
But again, that is exactly what taking hold of him does...
And as described with the comparison of taking hold of a foe who stands on bad ground, lifting him could paradoxically even make it easier for him to dodge.
I think it is very unrealistic if being on shifty sand is worth than being in thin air.

Quote:
Unless your GURPS games look very different from mine, that's lethally bad. Making it even worse is possible: Use TK for a takedown on the turn after you pick up your foe and, if you win, ascribe whatever special effects you like to the results; the game effect is that your victim is now lying down, and gets another -3 to Dodge for that. Alternatively, use the rules for shoving people around on that turn and, if you win, declare that you turn him away from you; now he can't defend against you at all!
The shove is useful indeed, unless the foe has the special situation of being blessed with peripheral / 360° vision, but, regarding the takedown:

To me it seems that if it is this route, a takedown should be rather "mandatory" in a way.

Whether I am "lying" in the air or standing in the air, both situations should be about equally bad.
Personally, I am inclined to not require a roll (but the full time to lift before the penalty applies) and balance this out by having anyone breaking free being able to immediately resume standing position as part of the breaking free manoeuvre (The reason being that it is hard to resist being lifted into the air opposed to being pressed against the ground).

And lastly, as we play an around 450 point campaign with a vast array of exotic options available, opponents with high dodge score are not rare, comparable perhaps to some of the Vampire enemies from the monster hunter series.

Quote:
The key point is that the initial, one-second grapple doesn't immediately make defenses worse than if you had grappled with hands. You have to take a turn for an Attack to grapple him, then a turn for a Move to lift him, and then another turn for an Attack to put him in a bad position. The huge benefit of TK is that you operate as an invisible attacker, so the initial defense against the grapple is likely to fail. A lesser benefit is that TK can be made very cheap with limitations, so you can easily have enough effective ST to ensure victory at takedowns and shoving around. Another lesser benefit is that you can stand 10 metres away and be at zero risk from having your hands parried by weapons, or having an angry, grappled foe attack you to get free.

Players who are expecting TK to turn each grapple into three turns of actions are asking too much from their points. If they want to do that, then they should invest in Altered Time Rate with suitable limitations for mental-only actions. If they just want instant restraint (one attack and the target is defenseless), then yes, they do indeed need to take Binding . . . which, as an alternative attack to Telekinesis, is stupidly cheap.
None of the players really expects that, it is just that usually, they are encouraged to come up with ideas and I think this is a very important key aspect of the GURPS system in general.

As said before, binding to aid telekinesis makes sense, just, adding it in to simulate an effect that should be obtainable by high TK Strength, reduced time /altered timerate / compartmentalized mind (which would likely be better fits) seems unreasonable to me.

Quote:
And to be clear, a GURPS dodge is any movement that pulls the attacked body part out of the line of attack. It may well involve nothing more than twisting the torso 10° or moving an arm 3 cm to the right. Full, bodily dodging with footwork is what retreat represents, and TK already prevents that.
I only do want to point out here that any bad ground affects al dodge rolls, not only those made with retreat and acrobatic dodge, what exactly a dodge represents in a situation should always depend on the nature of the attack though.

This reminds me of a small tangential question about retreat...

For the purpose of dodging an area attack, does the defender have to use dodge and drop, thus going prone, or can he retreat, thus, just jumping aside avoiding to go to the ground?
I did, so far, rule the latter, but as diving for cover is under dodge and drop, it seems possible to rule against that.
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