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Old 01-31-2018, 05:47 AM   #366
Icelander's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Moving on from grenade launchers to AK-type SBRs

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
It's an interesting topic (but maybe not in your campaign thread, sorry for the digression)
Not a problem. I believe I have adequately settled in my mind the capabilities of the cut-down M79 'Pirate Gun', the M203 and other underbarrel grenade launchers, a full-size M79, and the Mk19 MOD 3, which sadly for our PCs, will not be available to them in any way, shape or form.*

*Unless things have gone so badly wrong that a convoy of one or more of: Hummvees, GMVs, Flyers, L-ATV, ALSVs or Strykers, is scrambled from Fort Bliss, TX, effectively invading Mexico to rescue federal agents and supporting JSOC personnel caught in a Gothic Serpent scale cluster-[fornication], except much more embarrassing and potentially international relationship-ruining, as the operation has most likely not been cleared with Mexican authorities (and may be unknown to Congress, senior administration figures who really should be informed and possibly the NCA). Note to us players, don't do that.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Ah Ok didn't realise we're talking about practice. Which in GURPS terms brings back in noncombat bonuses which complicates matters here, especially with high skill users with low acc weapons. And yeah I can see the appeal of the M79, you can do things with it that you really can't with rifles, pistols & SMG's etc (and equally if it wasn't fit for purpose or added much you wouldn't lug it and it's ammunition around, especially if you are some spec ops team who's already pushing operational load weights more than most, and there's been plenty of time to assess it for this trade off)
I shall rule that M79 'Pirate Guns' are effectively SOG M79 and that the finest examples have been subjected to the equivalent of 'Fitzing' (High-Tech: PG1, p. 9), being a couple of inches shorter than a field-expedient Vietnam model and having had all surfaces carefully smoothed to make it easy to conceal and draw quickly. Also, they can mount mini reflex sights.

Comparing modern versions of the M79 'Pirate Gun' (11" to 13" OAL, very thick 3" barrel) with some of the weapons that get Bulk -2; like the MP7A1 with stock retracted (16.5" OAL, fairly bulky), Ingram MAC-10 with stock folded (11.6" OAL, very bulky), Lancaster Howdah pistol (11" OAL, four barrels), S&W No. 3, Colt New Army, Colt New Service and various other large revolvers with 5.5-6.5" barrels (ca 11" to 12" OAL, bulky cylinder), I'm comfortable with allowing the sleeker varieties of the 'Pirate Gun' to reach Bulk -2, for an effective Cost increase (really gunsmithing time) of +$250 or so.


Compact AK carbines

Next, I'm wondering if JSOC, SOCOM or the United States military in general would have access to many AKS-74U, AKMSU or the spare parts to easily make traditional AK-type rifles into very small, 'Krinkov' type AKMS carbines, i.e. short-barrelled 7.62x39mm carbines with shorter gas system and retractable or folding stock.

The Mini Draco AK pistol, which was popular in the US for civilian SBR conversions of this sort, is fairly hard to obtain and prices have shot through the roof.* Most of the shorter pistol type AKs are also getting more expensive, even though SBRs made from them will usually turn out around 20" to 22" OAL, rather than the 16" to 16.5" OAL short-barrelled rifle (SBR) that the Draco pistol can be made into.

US import restrictions on foreign firearms are responsible for some of the shortage, I believe. This would not bind government purchasers, so if Romanian, Bulgarian or other suppliers are able to turn out quality AKMS type weapons, or short AK pistols that can be made into that by adding a stock, they ought to be able to buy some.

Even easier, if the AKS-74U was even marginally common on Afghani or Iraqi battlefields, JSOC could have stockpiled several dozen of them. Making an AKMSU can be done fairly easily by a qualified armourer by replacing the gas system and several other parts in an AKMS by parts from an AKS-74U, and then shortening the barrel.

In the absence of easily available, economically priced AKS-74U or Mini Draco gas systems, however, I believe that JSOC would not expend time and fancy new German or Belgian rifle money on acquiring slightly more concealable AK-type rifles for a theoretical clandestine mission at some point in the future. After all, there hasn't been time to obtain a completely new weapon or to extensively modify an existing one. They've known about this specific mission for a week or two, not months.

Which would restrict the JSOC operators, who are the PCs' back-up and security, to fairly standard AK rifles, possibly with shortened barrels and retractable or folding stock, but not any shorter than around 22" OAL with stock retracted or folded. More likely they'd have rifles with 24" to 29" OAL with stock folded or retracted.

So, does anyone have a guess as to whether JSOC would find it easy and economic to quickly obtain the comparatively rare short gas system for AKs or weapons that make use of it?

Or whether they were likely to have many captured AKS-74U in stocks, as opposed to a few used for training?

*x3 to x5 in a few years.
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 01-31-2018 at 06:03 AM.
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