Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

OK. I have no problem with "kludged" or guess-worked 4e weapon stats. Can wait....

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

Did the files reach you intact.

I made some corrections to the official stats based on handling the real items.

Being the gun geek I am, I reality checked some things.

Like the Mosin-Nagant only taking 5 rounds instead of 5+1. And anything with a Mannlicher style magazine not accepting a +1.

I left the weights on most things alone, but the FG.42 didn't match any published source I've found and didn't say if it was the first or second issued varient.

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

I was a expecting a PM.

Yes, they did. Thanks. As for the errata, I guess they didn't catch it.

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

>Being the gun geek I am, I reality checked some things.

Please bring any and all errata to my attention, either here or via PM.

>Like the Mosin-Nagant only taking 5 rounds instead of 5+1.

Yep, that slipped through.

>And anything with a Mannlicher style magazine not accepting a +1.

Er. To which weapon would this apply other than Mauser C96 and the M1 Garand, both of which do lack the +1?

>I left the weights on most things alone, but the FG.42 didn't match any published source I've found and didn't say if it was the first or second issued varient.

The FG42 is a difficult thing to stat, mainly because it constantly evolved over a VERY small production run. Three main variants are commonly assumed, but some people suggest that change was gradual. Anyway, the first four major books I took from my shelves can't agree on weight -- ALL four give different weights . . .

The weight given in GURPS WWII is for the so-called FG42/II (there was no way we could list all three variants for such a relatively minor item in a book supposed to cover the entire war), and comes from a German source which I trust more than the various American and British books . . . You can always use the weight for the other instead: the same source gives loaded weight for the FG42/I as 10.9 and for the FG42/III as 12.8.

Cheers

HANS

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

Mannlicher-Carcano's shouldn't get the +1, nor should the Steyr-Mannlichers listed in “Michael's Army”. I've actually got to shoot the Carcano. I have an excellent manufacturer's section of the Steyr.

I seem to have gone off half cocked about the FG.42 weights. Crap, but I hate when I do that! I had used one source to make stats for this gun a long time ago for a WW2 game that pre-dates the SJ books. I keep remembering the weights wrong and making the same mistake over and over. It's fixed now!

The FG.42/I that I fired weighed 9 lbs. 14 oz. empty, we weighed it at the range on a grocer's scale the range uses to sell brass by the pound. I need to scan the pic of me and my grin holding it.

Robert Bruce's "German Automatic Weapons of World War II" (1996). He gives the weight of the FG.42/I as 9.9lbs empty and the FG.42/II as 1.5 lbs heavier (11.4 lbs empty).

Ian Hogg in " Military Small Arms of the 20th Century; 7th ed" (2000) lists 9 lbs 10 oz for the FG.42-1 and 11 lbs 2 oz for the FG.42-2.

John Weeks' "Small Arms of World War Two" (1979) gives 9 lbs 15 oz under a picture of a FG.42/I. No seperate listing of the /II.

Edward Ezell's "Small Arms of the World; 12th ed" (1983) gives 9.93 lbs for the Type I. No listing for the II, but it is pictured.

John Walter, "Rifles of the World; 2nd ed" (1998) lists the FG.42 I "without magazine" as 9.66 lbs. The FG.42 II "empty" as 11.13 lbs.

George Markham in "Guns of the Reich" (1989) lists no weights at all but mentions the type 2 as being noticibly larger and heavier.

GURPS: WW2 lists it loaded at 11.4 lbs with an ammo weight of 1.8 lbs. That give an empty weight of 9.6 lbs, presumably without the magazine. That would make it a FG.42/I in all of the references listed above.

Which brings us to our next topic. All of the English language sources cited above except one list only two types. I think that what my sources are calling the type I, you are calling the type II and my type II is your type III.

I did a google search and found a page ( http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/fg42/index.html ) that shows a US Army intelligence report on the FG.42 from June 1944 that states that it weighs 10 3/4 lbs loaded. That is darn close to the 10.9 you give for your type I. Based on the photos, I think that my books are giving the first two models the same designation.

FG.42 were seen in propaganda photos from the 12 September 1943 raid to rescue Mussolini. All of the sources I have say that all of the production of the Type I was in 1944. Hmmmmm.

Just a naming convention problem I think. Happens all the time. I've seen lots of references to MP.18/I and MP.18/II depending on if the gun in question accepts Luger style snail drums or a straight magazine. As far as I can tell, the slash designation is made by curators and historians to keep things straight rather than an official designation or marking that might be found on the gun.

Where does your source make the breaks between the three types?

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

>Mannlicher-Carcano's shouldn't get the +1, nor should the Steyr-Mannlichers listed in “Michael's Army”.

Those aren't in GURPS WWII, which I thought you were referring to, but that is of course right.

>Which brings us to our next topic. All of the English language sources cited above except one list only two types. I think that what my sources are calling the type I, you are calling the type II and my type II is your type III.

The FG42/II and FG42/III look very similar, they have the improved pistol grip as opposed to the slanted travesty of the original model, they have wooden shoulder stocks as opposed to the metal stock, and various other changes. The difference between the FG42/II and FG42/III is that the third pattern has more mass and an improved recoil spring in the stock since the gun vibrated too much on auto fire. The breechblock masses 600grams (rather than 430 and 510 respectively) and recoils 180mm rather than 140mm as on the two previous models, and the stock slides back 15mm vs 11mm. It has a markedly reduced RoF (10 vs 15).

>I've seen lots of references to MP.18/I and MP.18/II depending on if the gun in question accepts Luger style snail drums or a straight magazine. As far as I can tell, the slash designation is made by curators and historians to keep things straight rather than an official designation or marking that might be found on the gun.

I have read several serious articles on the naming convention of this gun. I haven't seen MP18/II in serious sources, but the debate on what, exactly, the /I in MP18/I means is still up (can probably not be solved).

Cheers

HANS

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

What's the title of your German book? I've laboriously translated books on tanks before, I'd like to try this one.

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

The one I fired was the type with the original pistol grip and metal butt. It was 9 lbs 14 oz empty, that is what you have for the Type II. Don't you just love conflicting sources?

It seems amazing that there is almost a pound difference in the weight between the example I weighed and other published sources. Most of the sources I listed above agreed with the weight and type I measured, so I was going with that.

I'm currently looking for Thomas B. Dugelby's book on it. He supposedly has details of SEVEN versions.

These German guns are infuriating! On one hand there is the FG.42, with endless variations and no name change. On the other hand there is the MP.43/MP.44/StG.44 with name changes and no variations!

I've read that much of this was to hide what was going on from Hitler. This always make me think of the old axiom, "Amatuers study tactics, professionals study logistics." Which makes me think, "Amatuer idiots mess up tactics, but professional idiots mess up logistics!" I wonder how the Allies managed to hire him to help with their war effort...

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

>What's the title of your German book?

ENZYKLOPÄDIE DER INFANTERIEWAFFEN, 1918-1945. A two-volume book by Lidschun/Wollert. Not perfect, but very good and much less confused about proper designations etc than most Anglo-American sources . . .

Also try these two sites, which have info on the three types:

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/fg42.html

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Waffen/FG-42/FG-42.htm

I am trying to track down a rare volume of WAFFEN-REVUE, a periodical that has THE BEST info on German weapons bare none. It was a series of booklets published by an engineer who worked with the German ordnance department during the war and post war built a private collection of manuals etc -- probably THE largest collection world-wide. Still haven't got the one I need, though ;)

Cheers

HANS

Re: Converting 3rd Edition to 4th Edition
 

>The one I fired was the type with the original pistol grip and metal butt. It was 9 lbs 14 oz empty, that is what you have for the Type II. Don't you just love conflicting sources?

Hehe. The book says 9.13 lbs empty, 9.77 with empty mag.

>He supposedly has details of SEVEN versions.

This is what I meant. The gun was modified so often during its production period that stating it is rather difficult . . .

>On the other hand there is the MP.43/MP.44/StG.44 with name changes and no variations!

Not so hasty, the MKb42, MP43, and MP44 ARE different. The variations are minor, to be sure, but the guns are not identical. The MP44 and StG44 are the same, though, it is just a name change -- and a good one. The weapon clearly is no Maschinenpistole and needed a new name, and Sturmgewehr is very suggestive.

Cheers

HANS