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-   -   [MA] [LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=163190)

Sorenant 04-22-2019 12:15 PM

[MA] [LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
This video shows a man wielding a dueling buckler and a knife with the same hand. From what I googled about this man he seems fairly controversial, so I wanted to ask the people here if it's an actual setup that has been used in history.

In GURPS terms, he'd be suffering -2 to use both skills, plus -2 off hand penalty to Knife skill. There's a perk to get rid of the off hand penalty but not for shield-hand wielding so he'd be at least at -2 to both skills. On the other hand, those skills a Easy so if he had both at DX+2 [4] he'd still be able ot use them at DX. He'd have -1 to Block compared to wielding only the buckler, but it gives him the option to stab with the knife, use some armed grappling technique and an extra parry in a pinch. So it doesn't seem to be all bad.
Would a custom combat perk based on Rule Exemption to get rid of shield-hand weapon penalty to this specific setup (dueling buckler + large knife) be believable or at least balanced?

Edit: On another video he does something similar but with the knife and a katar. This seems much less useful as it doesn't bring Block to the table, but if someone insisted doing something similar in GURPS, how would it be treated? Could it just use the same rules as the shield-hand weapon and give -2 penalty to use both weapons?

Also, what would be the GURPS equivalent of Pesh-kabz? It looks like a Large Knife with swing cut and thrust imp, but the article mentions it's also an armor piercer like Rondel Dagger, which doesn't have cutting mode. Maybe a Large Knife with the Armor-Piercing option from LTC2, at $160?

Verjigorm 04-22-2019 12:44 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorenant (Post 2257668)
This video shows a man wielding a dueling buckler and a knife with the same hand. From what I googled about this man he seems fairly controversial, so I wanted to ask the people here if it's an actual setup that has been used in history.

On the other side of the world, Scottish highlanders used targes with dirks, alongside basket hilted claymores. I think it's a plausible set-up, especially for any group of people who are prone to sudden skirmishes. Bucklers, knives and one handed swords are all rather quick to bring into action, as well as relatively convenient in comparison to other weapons, like shields or spears.

Quote:

In GURPS terms, he'd be suffering -2 to use both skills, plus -2 off hand penalty to Knife skill. There's a perk to get rid of the off hand penalty but not for shield-hand wielding so he'd be at least at -2 to both skills. On the other hand, those skills a Easy so if he had both at DX+2 [4] he'd still be able ot use them at DX. He'd have -1 to Block compared to wielding only the buckler, but it gives him the option to stab with the knife, use some armed grappling technique and an extra parry in a pinch. So it doesn't seem to be all bad.
Would a custom combat perk based on Rule Exemption to get rid of shield-hand weapon penalty to this specific setup (dueling buckler + large knife) be believable or at least balanced?
I'm pretty sure you've got it right. I think the a combat perk to dispense with the penalty sounds reasonable, either as a style perk or as a perk earned from experience.

Quote:

Also, what would be the GURPS equivalent of Pesh-kabz? It looks like a Large Knife with swing cut and thrust imp, but the article mentions it's also an armor piercer like Rondel Dagger, which doesn't have cutting mode. Maybe a Large Knife with the Armor-Piercing option from LTC2, at $160?
It's the distal tip. Notice the difference in the tips between the modern knife at the top, and the 18th century one at the bottom? The 18th century example has a reinforced distal tip. Allowing a distal tip weapon the bonus to targeting chinks in armor sounds reasonable.

Fred Brackin 04-22-2019 12:47 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorenant (Post 2257668)
This video shows a man wielding a dueling buckler and a knife with the same hand. From what I googled about this man he seems fairly controversial, so I wanted to ask the people here if it's an actual setup that has been used in history.

Such use is routinely attributed to Scottish Highlanders of the 1700s particularly seen by the Brits at Culloden.

I don't knw if this was used in stand-up combat or for specialized circumstances such as stabbing guys you've already knocked down.

Sorenant 04-22-2019 01:43 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verjigorm (Post 2257680)
On the other side of the world, Scottish highlanders used targes with dirks, alongside basket hilted claymores. I think it's a plausible set-up, especially for any group of people who are prone to sudden skirmishes. Bucklers, knives and one handed swords are all rather quick to bring into action, as well as relatively convenient in comparison to other weapons, like shields or spears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin (Post 2257682)
Such use is routinely attributed to Scottish Highlanders of the 1700s particularly seen by the Brits at Culloden.

I don't knw if this was used in stand-up combat or for specialized circumstances such as stabbing guys you've already knocked down.

Interesting, I never heard of Highlanders (which I identified with mostly claymores) using this kind of setup, nor about basket hilt claymored. I'll be looking it up, thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verjigorm (Post 2257680)
It's the distal tip. Notice the difference in the tips between the modern knife at the top, and the 18th century one at the bottom? The 18th century example has a reinforced distal tip. Allowing a distal tip weapon the bonus to targeting chinks in armor sounds reasonable.

I didn't notice the reinforced tip! Thanks for mentioning it.

Imbicatus 04-22-2019 03:22 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
For a cinematic game a rules exception perk seems in order, but for a more realistic game, Id use a hard technique to buy off the penalty for each skill, similar to off hand weapon training.

Verjigorm 04-22-2019 03:41 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Imbicatus (Post 2257732)
For a cinematic game a rules exception perk seems in order, but for a more realistic game, Id use a hard technique to buy off the penalty for each skill, similar to off hand weapon training.

In Martial Arts, Off Hand Weapon Training as a technique is replaced by a perk. An exemption perk doesn't seem to be far off the mark and of comparable power and realism, especially if it's limited to a small selection of weapons or two very specific weapons.

jason taylor 04-22-2019 06:14 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Yeah, I kind of wondered if you could do that.

Fred Brackin 04-22-2019 11:59 PM

Re: [MA][LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorenant (Post 2257697)
Interesting, I never heard of Highlanders (which I identified with mostly claymores) using this kind of setup, nor about basket hilt claymored. I'll be looking it up, thanks.
it.

The "basket-hilted claymores" of the mid 1700s would be known to various Gurps books as "Backswords" in the weapon table entries under Broadsword Skill and were common cavalry weapons in the English Civil War period of the previous century.

Since civilians of the period were well into the Smallsword period it was still a preety big sword by comparison but the Scots can probably be excused for reusing the Gaelic for "great sword" (pronounced more or less as "claymore" though spelled in a complicated and eccentric fashion) rather than coining somehtign new that translated as "pretty big sword".

seycyrus 04-23-2019 08:20 PM

Re: [MA] [LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
IMO.

In the first video, he's not suffering a penalty to either his block or his knife skill, rather he is allowing himself another option with his off hand at the expense of the other when the other option is exercised.

In the second video (katar/dagger) he is mitigating his reduced parry with the dagger, in a manner akin to the cross technique.

The above relates to the weapons in the hand, and not to the position-counter position-dance flow movement that the practitioners seem to suggest would occur in the fight.

jason taylor 04-24-2019 07:50 AM

Re: [MA] [LT] Dueling Buckler and Shield-Hand Knife
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seycyrus (Post 2258055)
IMO.

In the first video, he's not suffering a penalty to either his block or his knife skill, rather he is allowing himself another option with his off hand at the expense of the other when the other option is exercised.

In the second video (katar/dagger) he is mitigating his reduced parry with the dagger, in a manner akin to the cross technique.

The above relates to the weapons in the hand, and not to the position-counter position-dance flow movement that the practitioners seem to suggest would occur in the fight.

It would be interesting to be able to have enough examples to filter personal ticks from any given fighter.


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