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-   -   Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=152090)

Dragondog 10-03-2017 02:30 PM

Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
In Spells, the description of spells sometimes says that the caster has to concentrate to get something done, as with Sandstorm, Rider Within, and Control Person as well as Sanctuary, Wizard Eye, and Light.

The way concentrate is described for the first three, it sounds like it's the same as a Concentrate maneuver, which is explicitly needed for Simple Illusion and Hail, while with the latter three it sounds like it could be something less than a Concentrate maneuver.

Could I assume that those that not explicitly call for a Concentrate maneuver don't need it? And that you could choose some other maneuver while concentrating? And that this "lesser" concentrate indicate that you get the -3 penalty to cast another spell rather than the standard -1 penalty?

D10 10-04-2017 11:23 AM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragondog (Post 2126524)
In Spells, the description of spells sometimes says that the caster has to concentrate to get something done, as with Sandstorm, Rider Within, and Control Person as well as Sanctuary, Wizard Eye, and Light.

The way concentrate is described for the first three, it sounds like it's the same as a Concentrate maneuver, which is explicitly needed for Simple Illusion and Hail, while with the latter three it sounds like it could be something less than a Concentrate maneuver.

Could I assume that those that not explicitly call for a Concentrate maneuver don't need it? And that you could choose some other maneuver while concentrating? And that this "lesser" concentrate indicate that you get the -3 penalty to cast another spell rather than the standard -1 penalty?

lots of assumptions there. I personally would assume that concentrate = concentrate manouver. Meaning that you cant control the spells if grappled, suffocating, retching, etc.

Dragondog 10-04-2017 01:52 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by D10 (Post 2126662)
lots of assumptions there. I personally would assume that concentrate = concentrate manouver. Meaning that you can control it if grappled, suffocating, retching, etc.

I'm making no assumptions. I'm just trying to figure out why the wording is different.

D10 10-04-2017 02:21 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragondog (Post 2126714)
I'm making no assumptions. I'm just trying to figure out why the wording is different.

Well, I havent seen the finished DFRPG product, but the wording on magic has always been quirky, it wouldnt surprise me if they intended concentrate maneouver and just wrote concentrate.

Besides, I have never heard of a lesser concentrate, and dont know where you got that from. Do you mean the rules for when you are holding a missile spell and want to concentrate another spell at -3 ? I think you need a perk for that as well, but might be different in DF.

I hope someone with better info can help you, as im just throwing my 2 cents, and they arent worth much

evileeyore 10-04-2017 02:40 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by D10 (Post 2126721)
Besides, I have never heard of a lesser concentrate, and dont know where you got that from. Do you mean the rules for when you are holding a missile spell and want to concentrate another spell at -3 ? I think you need a perk for that as well, but might be different in DF.

Holding a missile spell requires no concentration.

Casting and growing it does, but once you've finished those things the missile is no more distracting than anything else you might be holding in your hand.

Dragondog 10-04-2017 02:47 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
On page 11 of Spells, under the Casting Spells While Maintaining Other Spells heading, you get a -3 penalty per spell you are concentrating on and a -1 per other spell you have on.

That's where I'm getting the "lesser" concentrate from, to call it something to explicitly differentiate it from the Concentrate maneuver.

D10 10-04-2017 02:57 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2126728)
Holding a missile spell requires no concentration.

Casting and growing it does, but once you've finished those things the missile is no more distracting than anything else you might be holding in your hand.

Never said holding the missile requires concentration, just that casting a spell while you are holding it has a penalty attached to it.

evileeyore 10-04-2017 06:25 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by D10 (Post 2126736)
Never said holding the missile requires concentration, just that casting a spell while you are holding it has a penalty attached to it.

Sorry, I should have clarified: You cannot cast other spells while holding missile spells. There is no penalty for concentrating on another spell whilst holding a missile spell. You just have to have already cast the other spell before the missile spell.

Some spells only require concentration in order to grow or move them, for example Windstorm.

You cast it and then concentrate for as long as it takes to get up to the size you want (1 turn per yard radius). Then it simply lasts (as long as you maintain it). If you want to move it you have to concentrate.

So you could, for example, cast Windstorm. Then whilst growing it, cast another spell. Or move it while casting another spell.

The perk from Thaumatology Magical Styles does not exist in DFRPG.


And yeah Dragondog, pretty sure 'concentrate maneuver' and 'concentrate' are the same thing, just one is spelling out that you have to use the maneuver, the other is not. And occasionally someone might be allowed to concentrate on multiple things (generally different spells or powers that are already active and one more that is being activated). There is generally no roll to concentrate on an active spell or power.

There is no 'lesser' concentrate, it's just spelling out that (probably) doing the 'lesser' while also concentrating on something else won't interrupt each other (baring a failed casting/activation roll).

Dragondog 10-04-2017 10:28 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2126785)
And yeah Dragondog, pretty sure 'concentrate maneuver' and 'concentrate' are the same thing, just one is spelling out that you have to use the maneuver, the other is not. And occasionally someone might be allowed to concentrate on multiple things (generally different spells or powers that are already active and one more that is being activated). There is generally no roll to concentrate on an active spell or power.

There is no 'lesser' concentrate, it's just spelling out that (probably) doing the 'lesser' while also concentrating on something else won't interrupt each other (baring a failed casting/activation roll).

That's what I was trying to figure out.

Tom H. 10-05-2017 12:14 PM

Re: Concentrate vs. Concentrate Maneuver
 
Good topic.

I would agree with the conclusions here.

Also on p. 11 of Spells the following section should be the rules evidence to clear this up:

Concentration and Maintenance

"You can maintain a spell without concentration unless it requires constant manipulation and change; e.g., to maneuver a levitating object. Spells like that require you to take the Concentrate maneuver only. . . ."


But yeah, it necessarily happens a lot that plain words are overloaded with GURPS significance. Don't get me started on power or ability. It may help if a term is italicized every time it is used when it refers to a specific game definition.


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