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CarrionPeacock 06-06-2019 01:02 PM

[Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
What's the 2019 updated way of handling tentacles? Older books uses Extra Arms (Extra-Flexible) but that's wrong, Extra Arms assumes a human arm, and a tentacle alone is not nearly as dextrous as human hands. Searching the forum I've seem many suggestions like using foot manipulators, applying No Fine Manipulator bonus to it, treat each 5 tentacles as an arm (each tentacle is a finger), treating tentacles as allies, etc etc. I couldn't find it, but has there ever been some consensus on this subject?
While we're at it, does Invertebrate affect grappling? Does an octopus with invertebrate use only 1/4 of its ST?

Refplace 06-06-2019 01:08 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
I go with Extra Arms in most cases but you can use Ham Fisted if you want them clumsy. Suction cups are the hard part in my opinion. I desperately wanted them in Technical Grappling.

ericthered 06-06-2019 01:40 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
I haven't seen any consensus.

I like to consider most realistic tentacles to be both extra-flexible and short: If you observe octopi manipulating objects with any sort of weight they like to use the middle of their tentacle, not the tip, and they hold things by curling around them. Such structures are able to do very complex things with the tip of the limb, but this tends to be with light objects and specialized motion.

I also think that hands are often more amazing than we give credit for, and I count octopi as having the equivalent of four arms, not eight. That gives us a [20] point build in all, rather than the traditional [100].

I admit that this is being generous to the octopus, but as you mentioned, its easy to overpay for tentacles. Though its worth noting that cinematic tentacles are worth more than the version I described above.

AlexanderHowl 06-06-2019 02:27 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Tentacles are useful though, giving a +3 to grappling for each tentacle and allowing for use of multiple one-handed and two-handed weapons. A race with four extra tentacles could weld two polearms, two shields, and would gain a +12 to grappling, which is worth 60 CP. With two medium shields and two polearms, the character could attack every turn with a polearms and block two attacks per turn without penalty. Oh, and Brawling, Boxing, Judo, and Karate give one parry per arm, so martial artist could parry six attacks per turn without penalty.

ericthered 06-06-2019 03:11 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2267366)
Tentacles are useful though, giving a +3 to grappling for each tentacle and allowing for use of multiple one-handed and two-handed weapons. A race with four extra tentacles could weld two polearms, two shields, and would gain a +12 to grappling, which is worth 60 CP. With two medium shields and two polearms, the character could attack every turn with a polearms and block two attacks per turn without penalty. Oh, and Brawling, Boxing, Judo, and Karate give one parry per arm, so martial artist could parry six attacks per turn without penalty.

If the tentacle has the range of motion, leverage, strength and reach to wield those weapons and shields. Its my judgement that realistic tentacles generally don't have those qualities. Cinematic tentacles are a different matter, but you should be prepared to pay for such limbs if you're allowed to use each one as a full arm. And your GM should be prepared to let you have those full abilities.

As a note, each extra arm is +2 to all grappling, not +3. The +3 only applies to the grappler with the most limbs when a pin is attempted.

AlexanderHowl 06-06-2019 03:36 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Sorry, but that is still +8 to grapples or four extra parries a turn or two shields and two two-handed weapons for 60 CP (assuming Extra Arm 4 (Extra-Flexible, +50%)). Extra Arms is well worth the points for the extra four parries and/or blocks per turn. This is especially useful when you consider that the character could use a polearm and four medium shield simultaneously.

One question that I would have though would be how much DB would four medium shields provide when wielded by four extra-flexible extra arms? Would it be +8 to all defenses? How would you deal with such a turtle, especially in a fantasy world?

ericthered 06-06-2019 04:00 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2267376)
Sorry, but that is still +8 to grapples or four extra parries a turn or two shields and two two-handed weapons for 60 CP (assuming Extra Arm 4 (Extra-Flexible, +50%)). Extra Arms is well worth the points for the extra four parries and/or blocks per turn. This is especially useful when you consider that the character could use a polearm and four medium shield simultaneously.

Yes, if you spend 60 points on four extra arms with extra-flexible you gain a huge advantage in combat, whether when striking or dueling. My objection is that an cephalopod with 6 limbs shouldn't be spending 60 points, and shouldn't have the awesome advantages you outline above. Not unless you're treating tentacles cinematically.

vicky_molokh 06-07-2019 12:26 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2267353)
Suction cups are the hard part in my opinion.

They'll likely be available Soon™.

Refplace 06-07-2019 01:00 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 2267445)
They'll likely be available Soon™.

I think thats a hint at Template Toolkiit 2: Races which I already was eager for seeing the Signaling advantage. This makes me even more eager for it.

AlexanderHowl 06-07-2019 07:04 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
I think that Suction cups could be modelled as an increase in Grip ST [1 CP/level]

evileeyore 06-07-2019 03:00 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Sorry, but every time I see this thread's title I expect it to be about a 'very special' anime...

maximara 06-07-2019 08:41 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock (Post 2267352)
What's the 2019 updated way of handling tentacles? Older books uses Extra Arms (Extra-Flexible) but that's wrong, Extra Arms assumes a human arm, and a tentacle alone is not nearly as dextrous as human hands. Searching the forum I've seem many suggestions like using foot manipulators, applying No Fine Manipulator bonus to it, treat each 5 tentacles as an arm (each tentacle is a finger), treating tentacles as allies, etc etc. I couldn't find it, but has there ever been some consensus on this subject?
While we're at it, does Invertebrate affect grappling? Does an octopus with invertebrate use only 1/4 of its ST?

Actually, Extra-Flexible under Extra Arms specifically mentions tentacles: "Extra-Flexible: Limbs with this enhancement are more flexible than human arms, like tentacles or an elephant’s trunk.”

No Fine Manipulator is not viable per "If you have a beak, tongue, prehensile tail, etc. that is as good as a hand, you do not have No Fine Manipulators!" (sic)

Now Bad Grip on the other hand makes far more sense.

So Extra Arms (Extra-Flexible +50%; Long +100%) (and perhaps Extra Attack) with Bad Grip seems to be the best fit IMHO.

Rupert 06-07-2019 08:45 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Ham-fisted might be a better fit than Bad Grip, as the latter affects most combat rolls. OTOH, for a cephalopod that has fine 'finger' control Bad Grip might be appropriate. It all depends on just what you're trying to model.

whswhs 06-08-2019 12:17 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267584)
Now Bad Grip on the other hand makes far more sense.

From what I read while working on Template Toolkit 2, Bad Grip is a *really* poor fit to an octopus's tentacles. They can exert a lot of force in holding onto things.

On the other hand, you could very plausibly give them Ham-Fisted. A cephalopod's tentacles don't report back to the brain in much detail; their ability to bend at every point means they have too much information to deal with. Instead each arm has its own local nerve centers that control most of its motions.

maximara 06-08-2019 06:06 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 2267605)
From what I read while working on Template Toolkit 2, Bad Grip is a *really* poor fit to an octopus's tentacles. They can exert a lot of force in holding onto things.

On the other hand, you could very plausibly give them Ham-Fisted. A cephalopod's tentacles don't report back to the brain in much detail; their ability to bend at every point means they have too much information to deal with. Instead each arm has its own local nerve centers that control most of its motions.

I was basing my choice of Bad Grip over Ham-Fisted on the Octosap (Bio-Tech 91): Extra Arms (6; Extra-Flexible, +50%) [90] [...] Bad Grip 1 [-5]

So you have changed your mind about the modeling of an Octopus tentacles since that book came out?

Refplace 06-08-2019 06:37 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267666)
I was basing my choice of Bad Grip over Ham-Fisted on the Octosap (Bio-Tech 91): Extra Arms (6; Extra-Flexible, +50%) [90] [...] Bad Grip 1 [-5]

So you have changed your mind about the modeling of an Octopus tentacles since that book came out?

Different authors, Bill edited Bio-Tech but David Pulver and David Morgan-Mar wrote it.
Even then though thats a specific gene modded creature so its tentacles may differ from other tentacle types. Heck I recall a crayfish discussion where its tentacles were not treated as arms at all.

Also that book was published in 2007 so that is a possibility too.

whswhs 06-08-2019 07:17 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267666)
I was basing my choice of Bad Grip over Ham-Fisted on the Octosap (Bio-Tech 91): Extra Arms (6; Extra-Flexible, +50%) [90] [...] Bad Grip 1 [-5]

So you have changed your mind about the modeling of an Octopus tentacles since that book came out?

Yes, I have, partly because I have read the Bad Grip disadvantage very closely while working on later books and noticed that it basically makes you unable to climb, and also partly because I have read several books about cephalopods and learned about how strong their suckers are. Anything that can do what an octopus can do doesn't strike me as having Bad Grip.

(I took my first close look while working on Powers: The Weird, and then again while working on Template Toolkit 2: Races. The exact lists of things the two traits hinder are slightly but importantly different.)

maximara 06-08-2019 07:49 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2267667)
Different authors, Bill edited Bio-Tech but David Pulver and David Morgan-Mar wrote it.
Even then though thats a specific gene modded creature so its tentacles may differ from other tentacle types. Heck I recall a crayfish discussion where its tentacles were not treated as arms at all.

Also that book was published in 2007 so that is a possibility too.

Actually, Bio-Tech has "Additional Material by William Barton, Eric Funk, Steve Jackson, and William H. Stoddard"

More over my late father and mother were old school printers and in those days the editor was "responsible" for making sure the writer/software didn't "cause problems."

My mother gave me three darkly comical examples.

One of the local papers computer program broke "therapist" as "the-rapist" and the editor didn't catch it and that caused a lot of problems for the paper.

Another one was a typo about a man 'who shot himself in the bathroom' except the typesetter goofed and used an "i" instead of an "o" in "shot". This sparked the somewhat tasteless joke around the area of "Well, the man chose the best place for it."

The last was the Directory for the State University which she personally edited. The program kept messing up until desperate they instructed her to 'make sure the President's and Vice Presidents' name are spelled correctly and run with it'.

Edit: Bill has confirmed he changed his mind regarding the use of Bad Grip and the reasoning for the change is very solid. Ham fisted does fit things much better.

evileeyore 06-08-2019 08:08 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267685)
... broke "therapist" as "the-rapist" ...

... typo about a man 'who shot himself in the bathroom' except the typesetter goofed and used an "i" instead of an "o" in "shot"...

... 'make sure the President's and Vice Presidents' name are spelled correctly and run with it'...

... Hoam fist ...

Yes. All errors a good editor would have caught.

vicky_molokh 06-09-2019 01:15 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2267667)
Even then though thats a specific gene modded creature so its tentacles may differ from other tentacle types.

Officially, no:
Quote:

Originally Posted by BIO91
The only change made to an ordinary octopus was to
raise IQ. The only unintended disadvantage was Stress
Atavism. All other advantages and disadvantages are native
to octopuses.


maximara 06-09-2019 06:19 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2267376)
Sorry, but that is still +8 to grapples or four extra parries a turn or two shields and two two-handed weapons for 60 CP (assuming Extra Arm 4 (Extra-Flexible, +50%)). Extra Arms is well worth the points for the extra four parries and/or blocks per turn. This is especially useful when you consider that the character could use a polearm and four medium shield simultaneously.

One question that I would have though would be how much DB would four medium shields provide when wielded by four extra-flexible extra arms? Would it be +8 to all defenses? How would you deal with such a turtle, especially in a fantasy world?

Actually, "No matter how many arms you have, though, you do not get additional attacks (or other extra maneuvers) in combat unless you buy Extra Attacks (see below)." ... "You cannot punch with more than one arm at a time unless you have Extra Attack, but you may grapple with all of your arms at once." B53

So Extra Arm 4 without Extra Attacks (25 points/attack) would not give you any extra maneuvers which IIRC includes Block and parry. To get those with your Extra Arm 4 you would have to also get Extra Attacks 4 for 100 points.

Extra arms also grants you a +2 per arm to break free of a grapple.

Varyon 06-09-2019 07:26 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267715)
So Extra Arm 4 without Extra Attacks (25 points/attack) would not give you any extra maneuvers which IIRC includes Block and parry. To get those with your Extra Arm 4 you would have to also get Extra Attacks 4 for 100 points.

Default humans get one unpenalized* Parry per arm, even without Extra Attack, so I see no reason why Extra Arms shouldn't give you an additional unpenalized Parry per additional arm. You certainly do need Extra Attack (or use Multi-Weapon Attack) to attack with more than one limb, of course.

*Unpenalized aside from the off-hand penalty when applicable, that is.

Sorenant 06-09-2019 09:07 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267715)
Actually, "No matter how many arms you have, though, you do not get additional attacks (or other extra maneuvers) in combat unless you buy Extra Attacks (see below)." ... "You cannot punch with more than one arm at a time unless you have Extra Attack, but you may grapple with all of your arms at once." B53

So Extra Arm 4 without Extra Attacks (25 points/attack) would not give you any extra maneuvers which IIRC includes Block and parry. To get those with your Extra Arm 4 you would have to also get Extra Attacks 4 for 100 points.

Extra arms also grants you a +2 per arm to break free of a grapple.

I agree with Varyon. Normal human dual wielding a sword can parry once with each hand without penalty, I don't see why a being with an extra arm wouldn't also get similar benefit as part of the advantage. Of course, Attacking (or Waiting, Evaluating, Concentrating, Readying...) is a whole new territory that would require relevant advantages.
Similary, a human can start a grapple with both arms (in fact, that's the default), so an octopus with 8 "arms" should also be able to start a grapple with all of them. Again, it doesn't mean it could, say, use 7 tentacles to grapple and one to stab with a knife or something.

maximara 06-09-2019 09:22 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2267731)
Default humans get one unpenalized* Parry per arm, even without Extra Attack, so I see no reason why Extra Arms shouldn't give you an additional unpenalized Parry per additional arm. You certainly do need Extra Attack (or use Multi-Weapon Attack) to attack with more than one limb, of course.

*Unpenalized aside from the off-hand penalty when applicable, that is.

But humans only have two arms (normally) so Extra arms granting extra Parries depends on if Parry counts as a Maneuvers and the Basic Set is a little vague on that point (other then the unready weapon)

DouglasCole 06-09-2019 09:35 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267775)
But humans only have two arms (normally) so Extra arms granting extra Parries depends on if Parry counts as a Maneuvers and the Basic Set is a little vague on that point (other then the unready weapon)

Active defenses aren't Maneuvers; you choose a Maneuver on your turn. Active Defenses are reactions that some Maneuvers preclude (All-Out Attack, frex) or limit (Committed Attack).

This is, however, the sort of thing that makes one go "Hmmm." If the limit on parries is "how much can you wave your limbs around?" then parrying 50 times with 50 arms makes sense. If it's "how fast and how well coordinated can you perceive and respond to attacks," then EVERY additional parry should carry a burden of penalties. If you want "avoid 'em all, at once," then dodge.

evileeyore 06-09-2019 10:08 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2267731)
Default humans get one unpenalized* Parry per arm...

Actually it's per weapon or bare hand (Basic pg 376), which as of Martial Arts also includes feet. MA, Parries with Legs or Feet pg 123, opens the 'two' up to 'three'.

The limit of 'three' is probably because they don't feel that quickly hopping from one foot to the other while leg parrying is realistic... I agree.


However, in my house games I allow "One Parry per limb before penalties accrue", but I also run cinematic games. So if someone wants to parry with two swords and both feet, go for it...

RyanW 06-09-2019 10:52 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
My first thought:

Extra Arms 2 (Extra Flexible, +50%) [30]
Extra Arms 4 (Extra Flexible, +50%; Temporary Disadvantage: Ham Fisted, -5%) [58]

You have eight tentacles which can function in pairs with similar dexterity as four normal arms. If used singularly, they have -3 to DX.

Not sure what "spliting up some pairs leaves the others fully dexterous" should be valued at. A perk at most.

maximara 06-09-2019 11:07 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2267807)
Active defenses aren't Maneuvers; you choose a Maneuver on your turn. Active Defenses are reactions that some Maneuvers preclude (All-Out Attack, frex) or limit (Committed Attack).

Except All-Out Defense is a Maneuver (B324) hence my comment.

Ulzgoroth 06-09-2019 11:32 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267840)
Except All-Out Defense is a Maneuver (B324) hence my comment.

All Out Defense is a maneuver, but it isn't in any respect an active defense. There's no vagueness about the relationship between maneuvers and active defenses.

AlexanderHowl 06-09-2019 12:48 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Yes, the rules are fairly clear, you get one parry/block per weapon/shield, and you can normally carry one weapon/shield per arm (strikers also normally count as a weapon, so they normally add to the parry count). A creature with 100 arms/stickers could parry 100 times a turn without penalty, though I am sure that there is diminishing returns after 10 parris per turn.

Refplace 06-09-2019 03:10 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2267840)
Except All-Out Defense is a Maneuver (B324) hence my comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 2267842)
All Out Defense is a maneuver, but it isn't in any respect an active defense. There's no vagueness about the relationship between maneuvers and active defenses.

What Ulzgoroth said.
From GURPS Basic p. B324
A maneuver is an action taken dur-
ing combat. Each turn, you must
choose one of the following maneu-
vers: Aim, All-Out Attack, All-Out
Defense, Attack, Change Posture,
Concentrate, Do Nothing, Evaluate,
Feint, Move, Move and Attack, Ready,
or Wait. Your choice determines what
you can do and your options for active
defense and movement.


Bolded items emphasized by me,

CarrionPeacock 06-10-2019 07:13 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Extra Hands (Extra-Flexible; Long) and Ham Fisted 2 sounds like the best option, despite being very expensive. Thanks for the replies.
Any words on Invertebrate? I'm still not sure if it applies to grappling.

Plane 06-10-2019 11:17 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock (Post 2267352)
Extra Arms assumes a human arm, and a tentacle alone is not nearly as dextrous as human hands.

Given that a parrot is defined as "One Arm" (B147: its tongue functions like an arm... meaning parrots can technically hold guns and shoot light guns using their tongues?), and a tongue is sort of like a tentacle...

Something like "Temporary Disadvantage: Missing Thumb -5% Missing Finger 3 -6%" might cover less coordinated tongues/tentacles? This would be -8 to DX so you'd have to Telegraph everything to stand a chance.

CarrionPeacock 06-10-2019 02:07 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
It ocurred to me that Tentacles seems to trade strength (Weak limitation) for flexibility (Extra-Flexible. Do they really?
Each extra arm used to grapple gives +2 to ST contests, so having 8 arms means a net +12 ST if using all of them, so using Weak will reduce the weight each arm can lift and strike, but above mentioned rule would keep their grapple very effective. By the way, B370 mentions a +2 bonus to hit with grappling for each arm used past the first two, so it implies one can use all arms (tentacles) to start a grapple.

@Plane
Parrots attacking people with guns is a funny mental image. By RAW though they don't have enough IQ to use technological skills (which Guns is part of).

ericthered 06-10-2019 02:38 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2268042)

Something like "Temporary Disadvantage: Missing Thumb -5% Missing Finger 3 -6%" might cover less coordinated tongues/tentacles? This would be -8 to DX so you'd have to Telegraph everything to stand a chance.

This is raw, but it really rubs me the wrong way because the temporary disadvantage completely destroys most of the advantage's functionality for a mere -11%

AlexanderHowl 06-10-2019 04:03 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
I agree. Bad Grip would probably be a better fit anyway.

whswhs 06-10-2019 04:11 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2268115)
I agree. Bad Grip would probably be a better fit anyway.

As I said, I've read several books on cephalopods, and they seem to be able to hold onto things really strongly with those suckers—it sounds like more strongly than humans, even if they're much smaller. I wouldn't represent that as Bad Grip.

a humble lich 06-10-2019 04:12 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2268092)
This is raw, but it really rubs me the wrong way because the temporary disadvantage completely destroys most of the advantage's functionality for a mere -11%

I agree, also I'm not sure that tentacles should take Missing Thumb. For humans, an opposable thumb is a big advantage and without is we have a much harder time grasping things. Because tentacles can wrap around an object several times, they can arguable grab things better than we can with a thumb.

The big disadvantage tentacles have is that they have a hard time using things
which take multiple fingers, like keyboards, pianos, and x-box controllers. Perhaps there should be a special limitation for extra arms:
No Fingers -10%. Your extra limb does not end in separable movable digits like fingers, making playing the piano hard. It still has a full range of manual dexterity and griping strength. This is suitable for tenatacles, elephant's trunks, and parrots beaks.
I set the value of the limitation low because it is not something I see coming up in play to much, but it would mean the character would be much slower with a typewriter.

lwcamp 06-10-2019 10:38 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 2268118)
As I said, I've read several books on cephalopods, and they seem to be able to hold onto things really strongly with those suckers—it sounds like more strongly than humans, even if they're much smaller. I wouldn't represent that as Bad Grip.

I've actually held a cephalopod - a California two-spotted octopus - and I have to agree. It was only as big as a grapefruit, but I couldn't get that thing off my hand until it decided it wanted to leave. It was one powerful (and slimy) ball of muscle and suction.

Luke

whswhs 06-10-2019 10:43 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lwcamp (Post 2268179)
I've actually held a cephalopod - a California two-spotted octopus - and I have to agree. It was only as big as a grapefruit, but I couldn't get that thing off my hand until it decided it wanted to leave. It was one powerful (and slimy) ball of muscle and suction.

That's what I read from other people who had been socializing with octopuses. I took it into account in writing TT2.

Plane 06-11-2019 01:19 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock (Post 2268085)
Parrots attacking people with guns is a funny mental image. By RAW though they don't have enough IQ to use technological skills (which Guns is part of).

B168 mentions penalties to "Other Technological Skills" (non-IQ based ones, a Gunslinger is used as an example)

Going by B22, most wild animals if statted should probably have multiple levels of "Low TL", going by B27 probably all TL 0 (stone age) which would give penalties...

B199 mentions needing to make an IQ roll to take immediate action if the weapon fails but I can't seem to see an IQ requirement for using them, do you recall where that is?

Verjigorm 06-11-2019 02:10 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
There's also the MinST requirement and Weight of the gun. A parrot doesn't have more than ST1-2 for the largest of them, and that means they can't pick up and use many guns, and those they can, would be at a significant penalty due to the high MinST requirements, relative to a parrot's strength.

Sorenant 06-11-2019 03:38 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
UT has some ST3 beam weapons. Maybe we could arm our parrot army with holdout electrolasers?

vicky_molokh 06-11-2019 03:51 AM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2268204)
B168 mentions penalties to "Other Technological Skills" (non-IQ based ones, a Gunslinger is used as an example)

Going by B22, most wild animals if statted should probably have multiple levels of "Low TL", going by B27 probably all TL 0 (stone age) which would give penalties...

B199 mentions needing to make an IQ roll to take immediate action if the weapon fails but I can't seem to see an IQ requirement for using them, do you recall where that is?

Having low IQ disqualifies characters from some traits, unfortunately.

Plane 06-11-2019 02:52 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 2268215)
Having low IQ disqualifies characters from some traits, unfortunately.

Okay I found the page that had this: page 15 is where it clarifies "sapience" (IQ6+) is required for languages/technological skills.

B198 "Gun/TL" is out due to the TL (anything with a TL requires IQ6+) but...

B186 "Crossbow" doesn't have a /TL so would that allow parrots to wield a Pistol Crossbow? B276 says it'd only weigh 4.06 loaded...

If B457's "Large Falcon" refers to the Gyrfalcon (up to 2.976 lb) then the Hyacinth Macaw (up to 3.7 lb) could probably also qualify for ST 3. The flightless Kakapo (owl parrot) can weigh up to 9lb and might even qualify for ST 4 like a cat?

Pistol crossbow has a ST guideline of 7 meaning a ST 3 creature would be at -4 to DX to use it... but it's still feasible, right?

As for actually lifting it (I assume you wouldn't need to do that if you were lying on the ground and bracing it, of course) they couldn't do it in 1 second, but since in 2 seconds you can lift 2xBL with one hand, ST4 (BL3.2) could lift 6.4 pounds (go owl parrot!)

ST3 (BL1.8) couldn't (only 3.6 in 2 seconds) without the Lifting skill or using Extra Effort, so they'd probably have to drag a crossbow pistol into position, and adjusting aim using dragging instead of lifting probably takes longer, similar to firing a cannon.

Verjigorm 06-11-2019 07:45 PM

Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2268327)
Okay I found the page that had this: page 15 is where it clarifies "sapience" (IQ6+) is required for languages/technological skills.

B198 "Gun/TL" is out due to the TL (anything with a TL requires IQ6+) but...

B186 "Crossbow" doesn't have a /TL so would that allow parrots to wield a Pistol Crossbow? B276 says it'd only weigh 4.06 loaded...

If B457's "Large Falcon" refers to the Gyrfalcon (up to 2.976 lb) then the Hyacinth Macaw (up to 3.7 lb) could probably also qualify for ST 3. The flightless Kakapo (owl parrot) can weigh up to 9lb and might even qualify for ST 4 like a cat?

Pistol crossbow has a ST guideline of 7 meaning a ST 3 creature would be at -4 to DX to use it... but it's still feasible, right?

As for actually lifting it (I assume you wouldn't need to do that if you were lying on the ground and bracing it, of course) they couldn't do it in 1 second, but since in 2 seconds you can lift 2xBL with one hand, ST4 (BL3.2) could lift 6.4 pounds (go owl parrot!)

ST3 (BL1.8) couldn't (only 3.6 in 2 seconds) without the Lifting skill or using Extra Effort, so they'd probably have to drag a crossbow pistol into position, and adjusting aim using dragging instead of lifting probably takes longer, similar to firing a cannon.

Ah yes, the dreaded Aerial Artillery of Uraguay.


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